wondering... take it easy... just a question

[Phil Jones]

That's not wearing a lifejacket while swimming. It's wearing a lifejacket while BOATING. Try diving or doing anything but floating while wearing a lifejacket, silly. Do you wear waterwings and an inner tube too?

 

You can drown in a bathtub. Do you wear a lifejacket into the shower, just in case? Maybe some SCUBA gear too?

 

That's just an adolescent, ignorant response, IMO.

 

And in my opinion you're an asshole trying to stir people up. You introduced the analogy of climbing with an MLU and swimming with a life vest, not G spotter. He just pointed out the shortcomings of your analogy. Just out of curiousity, since your the badass lifeguard, who the hell do you know who actually swims with a life jacket on? I can see paddling/boating with one on but swimming? Give me a break.

 

As for the MLU, oftentimes extra safety equipment can lull someone into a sense of complacency, taking risks when they shouldn't. They were used mostly for body recovery around here. Cell phone coverage used to be excellent all over the mountain until the switch to digital.

 

 

Fine, next summer we can read about YOU in The Oregonian when you go swimming in the Clackamas River and don't surface.

 

 

[utah]

i'm sorry i started this thread. it was meant to be about climbing but has turned to aquatics.

[rbw1966]

MLUs are beacon's--they can be used all over the mountain.

 

 

[Phil Jones]

MLUs are beacon's--they can be used all over the mountain.

 

 

I can't help but think that if they had an MLU, the searchers would have been able to lock onto the signal and gotten to them today or possibly even earlier this week.

 

 

[Frikadeller]

MLUs are beacon's--they can be used all over the mountain.

 

Oh, If that is true, I guess a couple of my guide books are wrong...

 

But as I understand it, they also only work if you activate it, and someone notifies the Sheriff that someone is overdue..

[willstrickland]

The recommendation from the powers that be is to carry EITHER an MLU or a cell phone on a Hood ascent. Many phones are analog/dig dual mode and a cell can be used in a similar fashion as a beacon. These guys took a cell phone, and apparently it worked since bro got through to his family.

 

So why the continued focus on the MLU, Phil?

[Phil Jones]

MLUs are beacon's--they can be used all over the mountain.

 

Oh, If that is true, I guess a couple of my guide books are wrong...

 

But as I understand it, they also only work if you activate it, and someone notifies the Sheriff that someone is overdue..

 

I'm sure they would have activated it last Sunday. And then, wouldn't rescuers have been able to triangulate their position from the signal? Don't they use portable homing receivers kind of like wildlife trackers use?

 

 

[G-spotter]

The MLU and lifejackets

[Phil Jones]

The recommendation from the powers that be is to carry EITHER an MLU or a cell phone on a Hood ascent. Many phones are analog/dig dual mode and a cell can be used in a similar fashion as a beacon. These guys took a cell phone, and apparently it worked since bro got through to his family.

 

So why the continued focus on the MLU, Phil?

 

Just curiosity is all. I don't know much about them and I've heard the subject brought up a few times after other Mt. Hood rescues. I remember a group who were rescued ten or more years ago who said they would never carry them. They were lucky since they were able to walk out.

 

 

[Dannible]

Searchers are all coming back down the mountain now.

Done for the day.

 

If the climbers had an MLU, they'd probably be on their way down, too.

 

But, hey, safety equipment is for sissies, huh?

 

 

Well, as I understand it, the MLU only works on the SOUTH SIDE of the mountain.. These guys where climbing the NORTH FACE, and decending on the south side....

 

So, if they are dug in on the NORTH side of the mountain, that MLU is as useful as a brick in your pack..

 

And as far as safety equipment, they are carrying that kind of stuff. Ropes, pickets, Ice axes, crampons, and screws are safety equipment that all of us climbers bring along. So, unless they are free soloing the NF of hood, in T-shirts and Jeans, I would say that they are safety sissies...

 

Well, finally, a logical reason to NOT carry an MLU. If what you say is true about the MLU's not working on the North Side then I can halfway understand why they wouldn't carry one. However, since they had planned to come down the South Side, it still would have been a nice thing to have, IMO.

 

I'm curious if it is true about the MLU's not working on the North Side of the mountain.

 

Can anyone else confirm that?

 

People have been giving you a logical answer; weight is an issue. You already said that you are not a climber so you would not know the difference a little weight makes on a route like the NF of Hood. MLUs weigh a little under a pound, and they are just one of the many things that one would bring if they wanted to be able to do something about every emergency possible. If you brought a MLU, GPS, avalanche beacon, satellite or cell phone, weather radio, a fully stocked medical kit, and extra food and fuel for say, 5 days, you would be adding at least 5-10 pounds to your pack. Most of us know from experience that that is enough to slow someone down significantly. The point of going light is to be able to get out of the danger zone asap, so that you don't need to have people looking for you. These guys were out of luck because the storm came early, but in my opinion they made the right decision in going light.

[Phil Jones]

I suppose it comes down to a matter of risk assesment and how much one is willing to gamble with one's life. While I have done some adventurous things in my live, I've always taken basic safety precautions and not pushed my luck too far. But, that's just me. To each their own.

 

I wish the three climbers well, but it sure isn't looking very good for them right now.

 

 

[carolyn]

I have been spending way too much time watching these posts. Ive also been spending too much time biting my tongue.

Im not one to get into debates on this forum, however, Im feeling the need to vent...

 

First,

the statement regarding how the resucuers are coming down and if the climbers had an mlu with them that they would likely be coming down now as well, if not earlier this week is completely ignorant and disrespectful. Whether you believe they should have had one or not, I believe the statement demonstrated a great lack of compassion for EVERYONE immediately involved in the situation.

 

Second,

In regards to comparison to lifejackets, floating devices, water wings, etc I believe that is a matter of choice - just like the MLU. I dont go out on boats often, but when I do, sometimes I wear a lifejacket. Other times I do not. It's My choice as I assess the risk. When I ride my bike to the grocery store 2 blocks away, I decide if I want to wear a helmet or not (no laws here). I assess the risk and make a choice. When I go climbing, I choose when I will wear a helmet (which is pretty much always for me). I assess the risk and make a choice. I may or may not choose to walk by myself to my car at 2am after work. Again, I assess the risk and make a choice.

 

Everyone perceives risk differently. What may be scary and dangerous to me, you might not think twice about. You look at your skills, your judgement, your experience, and the hazzards. Putting all of that together, you make the best choice for yourself. Implying that someone's choice was bad because it is different from yours, especially when one doesnt know the facts surrounding the situation shows a lack of compassion and ignorance IMHO.

 

I think its great the amount of traffic this site is seeing. I like that people are asking question - because they honestly want to know, rather than because they want to rip on someone elses faults. I also appreciate the honest response from regular members here. Though it has its quarky people (hehe) , I have a great deal of respect for the knowledge and opinions that get passed back and forth.

 

I dunno, maybe Im just bumming right now cause my trip to Ouray has been delayed or possibly cancelled.

Anyone got some time to head out there and climb?

[Phil Jones]

"First,

the statement regarding how the resucuers are coming down and if the climbers had an mlu with them that they would likely be coming down now as well, if not earlier this week is completely ignorant and disrespectful. Whether you believe they should have had one or not, I believe the statement demonstrated a great lack of compassion for EVERYONE immediately involved in the situation."

 

I don't think my statement was ignorant and disrespectful at all. It was realistic.

 

 

 

[Geek_the_Greek]

What exactly is your point, Phil? You asked a question and got a number of responses, but you didn't like the responses you got so you keep pressing the issue. You said yourself that you're not a climber, so at this point you need to accept the fact that you don't know the issues associated with climbing mountains, whereas other folks with more experience are better positioned to judge. I myself wouldn't venture to suggest what a good gear list would be for a sailing trip, for instance.

 

It's easy to point at this one incident and suggest one gadget that may have made things easier (maybe - not necessarily) now that the shit has hit the fan, but the story could just easily have been different. For instance, many groups discourage reliance on outdoor personal electronics, because they can break, batteries can die and/or get lost (ever try to fiddle with a small electronic device while wet, possibly hypothermic, and cramped in a snow cave?). GPSs are currently popular while old-fashioned map-and-compass work is not, but the latter have many advantages over the former: namely, they are much less delicate and prone to failure in crappy weather, or for extended use over many days. The current Hood group's supposed high experience level is much more to their advantage, for instance, than an MLU would be if they didn't have a lot of mountain savvy. An MLU doesn't do anything to save your butt in dangerous terrain - it just makes it easier for other folks to find you, dead or alive, once the weather is conducive for rescuers to venture onto dangerous terrain.

 

The other issue is that to some extent the point of climbing mountains is to get away from stuff like MLUs, computers, gadgets, etc. The trite comments on this thread suggesting 'why not stay home' are correct in this respect. To many folks the pleasures of mountaineering are about self-reliance with minimal gear, moving fast with occasional discomfort on airy terrain. Every individual has their personal comfort level about what gear to bring - some groups may have avoided bringing any sort of bivy bag or stove, for instance (less likely at this time of year, admittedly) to go for an even lighter one-day ascent. The choices made by this group do not seem, IMO, to have been particularly rash - quite in line with what folks would typically bring on a north-face Hood route in winter. Plenty of individuals stumble around up on Hood with less gear and make it down ok.

[Phil Jones]

I guess my point is that if climbers would lose some of their arrogant attitude against MLU's, it might not be necessary to send as many others up in dangerous conditions to hunt all over the mountain since they can be pinpointed. A small team of rescuers could bring them down much sooner.

It's kind of the same mentality as those who won't wear "personal flotation devices" or seat belts in their cars. Helmets for bicyclists and motorcyclists have been shown to save lives, but there are those who scoff at them.

But, like I said, to each their own. I prefer living well, then dying of old age.

 

[griz]

bottom line is despite a couple hundred years of cumulative climbing experience that has offered information and perspective to him...non climber phil knows better than all here.

[Phil Jones]

Well, I'm safe at home, nice and warm, typing on my computer.

That's much better than being a human popsicle in my book.

 

 

[Geek_the_Greek]

Right. Helmets and seatbelts for cyclists and drivers have been shown to save lives. MLUs for climbers have not. I'm afraid the only arrogance being shown here is your own, spouting off with your 'thou shalts' after admitting that you know very little about climbing.

[artschool]

Well, I'm safe at home, nice and warm, typing on my computer.

That's much better than being a human popsicle in my book.

 

 

 

So did Phil just refer to the stranded climbers as popsicles?

And did he previously state that climbers are arrogant?

Implying he is not?

I'm confused Phil. Please clarify. I'm sure the family and friends of the stranded climbers would appreciate that also.

[Phil Jones]

The MLU's were developed and made available to the climbing public shortly after the deaths of several young climbers in the Portland Episcopal School group many years ago. Was that just coincidental? I think not.

 

 

[Mr_Phil]

Well, I'm safe at home, nice and warm, typing on my computer.

That's much better than being a human popsicle in my book.

 

And that is your choice, which more and more people are making.

 

Of course, Americans are getting more obese due to lack of vigorous activity, as they sit in front of their computers.

 

 

[G-spotter]

It doesn't matter how long you live. What matters is how you live your life. You are going to die sooner or later Phil, just like all the "selfish, reckless" climbers you disparage. And based on your remarks here, Phil, I don't think many people will be upset when you die.

[fifthclass]

I don't post regularly but feel need to respond. Phil, I am glad that you are engouraging discussion and asking questions rather than simply drawing conclusions based on what's in the media. But you're missing the point about weight.

 

If you read "Accidents in North American Mountaineering," which is an annual published summary of all reported accidents, and you scroll down the statistics tables, you'll see that the top reasons for accidents are: (1) slip/fall on rock; (2) slip/fall on ice; (3) falling rock, ice or object; and (4) exceeding abilities. Things like "exposure" and "stranded" are much, much further down on the list. And when you read the actual accidents, (1) and (2) diminish in more experienced climbers. Personally, I think that falling rock and ice are the greatest danger out there, particularly on a route like the one these climbers chose.

 

When a climber carries more weight, they move more slowly, with less agility, and increased fatigue over the course of the climb, much increasing your chances of (1), (2), or (3) occurring. The longer you are on any route, the more likely you are to be hit by rock/ice fall, and it happens more frequently than being lost. If you pick up any book about mountaineering, you will see how important it is to keep the weight down in order to move quickly and avoid hazards. For all we know, carrying the bivy sack, extra fuel, and food that these guys had may have slowed them down and exposed them to any of these hazards, including the incoming weather. They were smart and wise to be prepared with these items -- I am not in any way questioning their gear choice -- but every time anyone climbs, they make very carefully thought out choices about gear and weight. Both issues are EQUALLY important. Reducing the amount of weight isn't about being lazy, wimpy, careless, or a risk-taking adrenaline junkie. It's about safety -- NOT carrying stuff is like wearing a life jacket. I know that this is very repetitive of what everyone has been saying, but just trying to say it in another way.

 

Plus, my understanding is that MLU's only work on Mt. Hood, which makes them of limited value as a gear choice -- not to mention that since these climbers were from out of state, they might not have even known about the MLU's on Hood. There are also personal location devices that work elsewhere but that are very expensive ($700-?) and of questionable value as compared to other safety items that climbers carry.

 

One more pound may not sound like a lot of weight, but it is, and it adds up fast. If someone takes one more pound by carrying an MLU, there usually is a trade off for other safety gear.

[Phil Jones]

It doesn't matter how long you live. What matters is how you live your life. You are going to die sooner or later Phil, just like all the "selfish, reckless" climbers you disparage. And based on your remarks here, Phil, I don't think many people will be upset when you die.

 

Well, then, I suppose you won't be upset when some of the searchers get buried alive by an avalanche as they hunt all over the mountain for the missing climbers. I will. It will upset me to think it might not have been necessary had the climbers carried an MLU.

 

 

[Frikadeller]

No matter how you explain it to Mr. Jones, I don't think that he is going to understand what it is that attracts us to climbing... Or why someone would go up a mountain in the middle of the winter...

 

But thats fine, because while he is busy not becoming "a popsicle" and posting stupid comments on a website, I will be skinning my new spitboard up some new snow tomorrow, and hopefully get some good turns in. I guess I will be able to see the helicopters and planes serching for these guys, as I think I am gonna skin up to palmer... (I hope that part of the mountain is not closed??!)