suckbm Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 Ive got a couple questions about bolting- - are there any good tutorials on how to bolt online? - how long does each bolt take to handrill in basalt? - what is the best type of bolt and size for eastern washington basalt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 4 inchs long by 3/8 or 1/2 are the standard these days. Hand drilling will be about 20 minutes or longer a hole. Try to use stanless steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underworld Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 the best size of bolt for basalt is the size having the most fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvallisclimb Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 4 inchs long by 3/8 or 1/2 are the standard these days. Hand drilling will be about 20 minutes or longer a hole. Try to use stanless steel. 1/2 x 4 inches in basalt? seems overkill unless youve got a power drill and are sponsored by asca... no but really in solid basalt you can get away with 3/8"x2.25" if you have to hand drill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 Ive got a couple questions about bolting- - are there any good tutorials on how to bolt online? - how long does each bolt take to handrill in basalt? - what is the best type of bolt and size for eastern washington basalt? Why are you hand drilling? Drills are not that much these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pink Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 hand drills control the number of bolts. slows shit down to the stone age. just the way i like it. power drills are alot easier and have to admit are nice to use. save the rain forest, good luck with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappy Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 4 inchs long by 3/8 or 1/2 are the standard these days. Hand drilling will be about 20 minutes or longer a hole. Try to use stanless steel. Kevbone- Oh, it would be longer... I'll bet you a two year supply of hangers there is no way you could handrill a 1/2" by 4" hole in solid Eastern Washington basalt in under, let's say 30 minutes. suckbm- -3/8 by 2.25-3" is sufficient. Unless it's in a waterfall, a zinc plated 5-piece is stronger than a stainless wedge and IMO is a better choice in an arid environment. - good basalt has a very tight grain and is far harder to drill than say Stuart Range granite. Expect it to take 30-45 minutes per hole, particularly if you haven't had a fair amount of practice. - as far as tutorials go, a "pet" boulder and a six pack will give you the best lesson... *solicit your bud Alpine Monkey, he knows how. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
132435465768 Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 here you go, a piece of the puzzle... go buy drill and hammer, take it to rock, while twisting drill with wrist hit back of drill with hammer, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat...FOREVER or until desired depth is reached, which will be determined by the bolt length. at first you may wonder which will come first! a good way to check your progress is to remove the nut and washer from the bolt and put it in backwards to check your depth and then pull it back out. do not drill your hole too shallow or you risk bottoming the bolt out before it's fully embedded. make the hole a little deeper than you think so as to accomodate any dust that may sit in the back of the hole, which can also lead to premature bottoming of the bolt.all bolts have minimum embedment requirements to reach full strength so don't short yourself! some people think that you should not over drill holes, but in rock it's fine. that whole line of thinking comes from the construction industry where there is often the concern of drilling completely through a concrete slab, some of which can be as thin as 4", or into radiant floor heating systems. if you have a power drill(or alot of excess energy to burn with a hand drill) i would advise overdrilling the hole by roughly an inch so that in the event that the bolt does not expand properly ( a "spinner") you can simply pull the nut off, pound the bolt all the way in and cover it with a two part epoxy. while the epoxy is still wet you can take rock particles and embed them into it. if done properly, you will immediately have a very difficult time of locating where it was, which is a good thing. anyway... so now that you have your hole just how you like it it's time to pound your bolt into it!!! if you are using a wedge anchor back the nut off until it is just below flush with the top of the bolt and put the bolt through the hanger and pound it in until the nut and hanger come tight up against the rock. tighten the nut. generally, from the back of the nut i like to tighten the nut down until three threads are showing behind the nut, inotherwords three rotations of the nut. however, sometimes the nut will require a few extra turns to get the wedge to seat properly. look, just make sure the fucker's tight all right? bolts have torque requirments but i don't foresee climbers anytime soon carrying around torque wrenches with them, i sure as hell don't. a 5 piece is a bit more hassle free in my opinion, more cash though. for these it's really as simple as pounding in the bolt and making sure it is tight. i know this all seems very complicated and technical but i assure you it is about as hard as changing out the bag on a vaccuum cleaner. this is certainly not an order but rather a bit of advice... don't be a fucking moron with your new found toy. you will have to decide what that means for yourself because i sure the hell am not getting into a bolting ethics debate. that having been said i think MOST climbers agree on two things- don't bolt cracks and stay the fuck off existing lines. i promise that if you do either of these things and attach your name to it you will regret it. this is how the process goes- think think think bolt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvallisclimb Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 while twisting drill with wrist hit back of drill with hammer, do not hit the drill while twisting, twist then hit. doing that causes the bit to get stuck more, or break if they are weaker bits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 do not hit the drill while twisting, Just go buy a power drill! Fuck hand drilling. You might as well take a horse to the crag instead of you car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvallisclimb Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 do not hit the drill while twisting, Just go buy a power drill! Fuck hand drilling. You might as well take a horse to the crag instead of you car. I guess... I would suggest drilling your first bolts by hand so you can appricate how it used to be done. Then once you feel you can progress to the power drill without over doing it... go for it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
132435465768 Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 while twisting drill with wrist hit back of drill with hammer, do not hit the drill while twisting, twist then hit. doing that causes the bit to get stuck more, or break if they are weaker bits. don't buy it. the human hand is not turning the bit with enough force to keep it moving accross the rock during the point of impact it must take you 45 minutes to drill one hole. believe me when you're a 150 smacks into it you're hitting the drill while twisting it. i've never gotten a bit stuck and i certainly haven't noticed it dulling faster. as for breaking a bit with a hand drill... you would have to seek out the shittiest steel possible. iv'e never seen someone break a bit hand drilling, maybe if you fell on it or something strange like that. i just start hitting and twisting, weaving and bobbing, never had problem to date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvallisclimb Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 if they sold chisel tipped 17/64 SDS bits then breaking bits wouldnt be so much of an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwrts Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 4 inchs long by 3/8 or 1/2 are the standard these days. Hand drilling will be about 20 minutes or longer a hole. Try to use stanless steel. Kevbone- Oh, it would be longer... I'll bet you a two year supply of hangers there is no way you could handrill a 1/2" by 4" hole in solid Eastern Washington basalt in under, let's say 30 minutes. i will take this bet, too...kevbone I would like to see you drill these holes with hand drill. I agree with slap on the 3" max as good. And for good measure if you got, squirt some glue in the hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 I guess... I would suggest drilling your first bolts by hand so you can appricate how it used to be done. Thats not a bad idea. You could also ride your horse across country, so you can appricate how is used to be. Or jump on board with the 21st century. Why your at it, make sure to listen to your 8 track before you go climbing. I have some beta tapes for you to watch as well. Buy a drill. Screw hand drilling. Unless you have to, AKA, wilderness area! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappy Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 while twisting drill with wrist hit back of drill with hammer, do not hit the drill while twisting, twist then hit. doing that causes the bit to get stuck more, or break if they are weaker bits. don't buy it. the human hand is not turning the bit with enough force to keep it moving accross the rock during the point of impact it must take you 45 minutes to drill one hole. believe me when you're a 150 smacks into it you're hitting the drill while twisting it. i've never gotten a bit stuck and i certainly haven't noticed it dulling faster. as for breaking a bit with a hand drill... you would have to seek out the shittiest steel possible. iv'e never seen someone break a bit hand drilling, maybe if you fell on it or something strange like that. i just start hitting and twisting, weaving and bobbing, never had problem to date. I have shattered two 5/16" carbide tips while hand drilling although it had nothing to do with twisting and more to do with being scared/over-zealous... and the "weaving and bobbing" thing doesn't work so well if you're putting in button heads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 [i'll bet you a two year supply of hangers there is no way you could handrill a 1/2" by 4" hole in solid Eastern Washington basalt in under, let's say 30 minutes. So im off on the time by 10 minutes, sorry. Hand drilling still sucks if you dont have to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappy Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 [i'll bet you a two year supply of hangers there is no way you could handrill a 1/2" by 4" hole in solid Eastern Washington basalt in under, let's say 30 minutes. So im off on the time by 10 minutes, sorry. Hand drilling still sucks if you dont have to. No. As usual, you were talking out your ass about something you know nothing about. You're probably off something more like 20-40 minutes, of course you wouldn't know that because you clearly haven't taken the time to actually do it. Hence the reason I am willing to bet $100+ you couldn't. I disagree, hand drilling does not suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 [i'll bet you a two year supply of hangers there is no way you could handrill a 1/2" by 4" hole in solid Eastern Washington basalt in under, let's say 30 minutes. So im off on the time by 10 minutes, sorry. Hand drilling still sucks if you dont have to. No. As usual, you were talking out your ass about something you know nothing about. You're probably off something more like 20-40 minutes, of course you wouldn't know that because you clearly haven't taken the time to actually do it. Hence the reason I am willing to bet $100+ you couldn't. I disagree, hand drilling does not suck. I never stated I have drilled lots of bolts by hand. And your correct, as far as timing of hand drilling, I was talking out my ass. Kind of smells. My history: By hand….1 personally…..witnessed 5 or so. Drill………200 give or take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 Ive got a couple questions about bolting- - are there any good tutorials on how to bolt online? - how long does each bolt take to handrill in basalt? - what is the best type of bolt and size for eastern washington basalt? -Check the ASCA site, although there seems to be less info than before. RC.com use to have a great thread started by RRRadam, but it looks like he edited it. Might do a search there. Rockclimbing.com -@ half an hour depending on how bad your forearms are pumping. 3rd thing: adding a little to what’s been said above: On the bolt question, given rock that’s not just loose shit, for hand drilling, the 3/8 X 2.25 stainless steel wedge anchors would be perhaps as good as anything you could find. I would use them before the Powers 5 pc in Steel, and the Powers 5 pc in Stainless is way too expensive. You might consider using a cordless hammerdrill as you can install larger and deeper (thus stronger) bolts. Course, no one wants to be carrying all that crap on a long alpine route. In the old days, almost all climbers used Rawl bolts because they were deemed the best. The were a split shank construction bolt made by the Rawl corp. out of high alloy steel that had a shitload of problems relating to design, size and material. Strength ratings for wedge anchors and Rawl Studs 1st issue was the size. They were ¼ diameter and either 1”, 1-1/4 or 1-1/2” long. Due to the design of the split shank, the holding power was not at the bottom of that short length, but closer to ¾ of the way down. All the strength was almost at the surface of the rock. 2nd issue is that they rusted quickly. The plating would get scraped at the exact location they relied on for their strength as you banged it in, being high alloy they rusted (relatively) fast. 3rd, the split in the shank needed constriction to cause it to hold, as you tapped the anchor into the small hole, as it started to squeeze the split shank, the pressure would often break the rock at the top of the hole and thus blow out the hole. This occurred more frequently on Basalt than on Granite. At Smith, it was very problematical in the soft welded Tuff but they got used there as well, (along with some other types like the Star Nail-in (Star Dryvins) which used to dot the West Face of Monkey Face and a few other places. These little split shank guys, when brand new, would hold up to 2000 lbs on their very best day in ideal conditions. You can check out the strength in the link above as the Rawl Corp was renamed Powers and they still make the little pups. Of course, in rock, conditions even on the same cliff can be hit and miss, let alone some poor pumped out dude in a near death state trying to hand drill a hole with a dull drill bit as his feet are greasing and smearing off while his forearms are screaming. Yet this was the defacto standard and was widely used on almost all climbing routes and for most anchors throughout the US. You still run into these little workhorses today, standing up after 30-40 years, still holding falls. Failures were remarquably rare too. When 3/8 bolts came into vogue. The length of them jumped immediately as well. Shear and tensile went up by a large factor, but most importantly, the holes were not being banged out and weakened by the constricting force created by the split shank, and the strength was coming from close to the bottom of the length being used, unlike the split shank construction bolts. http://www.powers.com/pdfs/mechanical/07424.pdf Wedge anchors of 1-3/4 length were not uncommon, hand drilling was still in use, and longer than that was rare although there was a bird or 2 using 2” or 2-1/2 here or there in the desert or in weaker rock, but not often around here in basalt, and never in granite with a hand drill. With the use of roto-hammers, size and embedment depth have gotten bigger and size matters less on the installation end. But if you look at the strength of a single 3/8 x 3-3/4 stainless wedge anchor, you will see in order to stress it to the point it will failure, the human body attached to the other end would have most likely not survived that force. So to answer your question, I suspect that a 3/8" diameter x 2.25" is good, especially if you are handdrilling and a 3.75" long anchor bolt is overkill for 99 percent of rock. However, it was brought to my attention by Mark D that any dumbass climber can easily over torque and thus weaken a 3/8 wedge anchor on install. (A torque wrench should be used to install these, or at least learn what 25-28 foot# of torque feels like with your box end wrench) So as such, 1/2 diameter should be utilized to avoid the potential to weaken the bolt on the installation. I have never heard of anyone installing a 1/2 bolt by hand, in fact, my 14.4 V Milwaukee cordless hammerdrill can do about 12-14 3/8 X 3-3/4 holes before the battery dies, but will do only 1 and a half of the 1/2" diameter before dying. It is a significant difference. My cordless drill essentially won't drill that size, and it takes forever and rattles the hell out of ya too when you try it. For handdrilling don't try to bite it all off at once. A new sharp bit and a good hammer will get you far along as will strong forearms. Tap tap tap twist tap tap tap twist Tap tap tap twist tap tap tap twist, get a rhythm and let the rebound of the drill do the work. Don't tap too much before twisting, you'll feel it. If you are way out on lead pissing your pants, a light sling can be put over the drill bit right where it is next to the wall once the bit starts to get some depth, and clipped to your harness to relieve your aching calves. Don't weight it too much or just hang on it as a snapped drill bit would suck, it's for supplementary assistance so you don't take a fall only until you get the hole down where you can put the wedge anchor in. If you are on anything but a nice stance, you'll be peeing your pants for sure, it's a very uncomfortable and muscle aching feeling. Very insecure. When the hole is deep enough, add a few more hammers blows to make it deeper just to make sure, as was said above, inserting the bolt upside down will sort of work, but better yet is to put some tape on your drill bit when you are safe at home watching the Flintstones to mark how far you need to go. I have put in bolts without blowing the dust out of the hole, the twisting motion of the bit will clear the hole, but take a McDonalds straw and blow the hole out. Put the nut and the hanger on so the nut is flush with the top of the anchor stud, then slowly tap in the bolt until it is flush. Slamming the bolt in may be what causes spinners. Tap it in then set it by wrenching it to the recommended torque and you're done baby! Clip that puppy and hang like a the crybaby motherfucker you feel like......err, wait, I don't know where that came from, I mean clip and send, that’s it, clip and SEND BABY! (Note to self: No hanging damnit, no crying damnit, no peeing the pants.... again.... damnit.) A heavy hammer is nicer than a light hammer, the Kong Eagle is good, they make 2 versions the heavy one rules. A5 if you can find one without mortgaging your left nut, a Forrest wall hammer, or Black Diamond are all good. Stay away from some of the real light European hammers (Bonati, Salewa) which are really designed to be carried up easy 3000" faces in the alps to just reset a piton or 2. You'll be working your ass off to get a hole drilled with one of them. Use stainless steel wedge anchors too. Even in Eastern Washington and Oregon. Seriously, otherwise, someone is going to have to replace it, and you can't get the 5 pc out within 2-3 years in western Oregon with a wrench cause the threads rust and weld the bolt to the wedge insert. You wind up snapping the head off and then you have a grade 5 bolt which you aint drilling out easily bubba, so you have to put the next STAINLESS bolt next to the snapped off 5 pc and cover the shithole with 2 part epoxy. Hopefully you will find some pearls of wisdom in that post somewhere that will help you out. Take care Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 Damn bill, did you type all that? Or are you the paste and copy king? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 Damn bill, did you type all that? Or are you the paste and copy king? I copied and pasted the first part, just like this post Kev. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvallisclimb Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 [i'll bet you a two year supply of hangers there is no way you could handrill a 1/2" by 4" hole in solid Eastern Washington basalt in under, let's say 30 minutes. So im off on the time by 10 minutes, sorry. Hand drilling still sucks if you dont have to. No. As usual, you were talking out your ass about something you know nothing about. You're probably off something more like 20-40 minutes, of course you wouldn't know that because you clearly haven't taken the time to actually do it. Hence the reason I am willing to bet $100+ you couldn't. I disagree, hand drilling does not suck. How the hell is he off by that long are you seriously saying it would take 50-70 min to hand drill?? if so you in fact are off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
132435465768 Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 i've never even broke a 1/4 inch bit let alone a 5/16. bent them though. if you've "shattered" two then maybe YOU should start weaving and bobbing instead of being scared and overzealous. also, you say carbide tipped as though this makes the shaft of the bit stronger, wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 reet reet reet CTFO peeps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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