DirtyHarry Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 The rock at Trout Creek isn't that good. Might as well just bolt the cracks there - would be safer and would get more people to climb there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 ..... I know some folks are to lazy to drag large gear into remote areas do to it's weight. I'm not implying that the FA's of this route were lazy, but that is often why you see bolts on wide cracks. The grade is usually lower by one grade on cracks if you aren't poking gear in on lead. Obvioulsly none of us know wheather things are loose up there or not, but my comment was more to do with the way people learn to climb these days. In gyms, at sport crags.....I think it is important to pass on the history of the sport and attempt to save the rock for future generations who can send in better style. By all means if you can't get gear in...put in a bolt. The looks of those pictures I mentioned sure look like there could have been gear placed. A5 - I totally agree with you and they way young people are learning and some of the ethics (and lack thereof) some are carrying into out sport. Bolting cracks is one thing we never use to see of ever hear of. Euros (French) in particular have also been known for leaving all their trash after an expedition to a remote pristine part of the world (Here's hoping they don't do that any longer). It looks like they did have the wide gear. Check this pic. roof pic Some pretty good pictures given the environment. Well, that lacks impact! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pup_on_the_mountain Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 Your linky not worky... here's the picty . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimL Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 ..... I know some folks are to lazy to drag large gear into remote areas do to it's weight. I'm not implying that the FA's of this route were lazy, but that is often why you see bolts on wide cracks. The grade is usually lower by one grade on cracks if you aren't poking gear in on lead. Obvioulsly none of us know wheather things are loose up there or not, but my comment was more to do with the way people learn to climb these days. In gyms, at sport crags.....I think it is important to pass on the history of the sport and attempt to save the rock for future generations who can send in better style. By all means if you can't get gear in...put in a bolt. The looks of those pictures I mentioned sure look like there could have been gear placed. A5 - I totally agree with you and they way young people are learning and the ethics (and lack thereof) some are carrying into out sport. Bolting cracks is one thing we never use to see of ever her of. Euros (French) in particular have also been known for leaving all their trash after an expedition to a remote pristine part of the world (Here's hoping they don't do that any longer). It looks like they did have the wide gear. Check this pic. roof pic Some pretty good pictures given the environment. Well, that lacks impact! You guys, AFive and Bill, are silly. The young people/ethics/gym argument is so played out. Really, how old are you to be preaching to young people about ethics? How many of these "young gym climbers" do you see out bolting cracks? If I had to place a bet, I'd say that most of the folks placing bolts next to cracks are far from young. People learn ethics from watching other people doing proud send, not from having some idiot beating them over the head with their ethics bible. Really, if you want to bash bolts next to cracks, I have an idea for you. Go down to Yosemite, start up the Nose and start bashing every bolt next to the wide crack before the pendulum into the stove legs. I’d like to mention that the people who put those bolts in place were neither young, nor gym rats. Were do you get off saying Euro climbers/French expeditions for trashing pristine parts of the world. What evidence do you have for that statement? Really, that is just a stupid comment. If you look back historically, it is the Asian expeditions that leave trash. Read the AAJ article, I forget if it was this years or last, and you will see an example of this in the Trango Towers. You statement about Euro climbers is almost the same as the statement that I sometimes face here that Americans are “fat, dumb and drive big cars that destroy the environment”. I guess I'm a Euro climber now and I don’t trash the environment, nor have I seen others trash the environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 Really, how old are you to be preaching to young people about ethics? 51 - but I'm not preaching Tim, just saying. And that stuff is played out, I agree, but what's a mother to do? People learn ethics from watching other people doing proud send, not from having some idiot beating them over the head with their ethics bible. Really, then what is the reason for 18 years of mandatory schooling if you don't learn by being told and from reading others opinions? I should sue the government for making me waste all those years. Were do you get off saying Euro climbers/French expeditions for trashing pristine parts of the world. What evidence do you have for that statement? Well, I don't know what that means really. "Where do I get off"? What do you mean "get off"? "Where I get off?" Not sure I understand that. Well, I don't get off on trash, that's for sure. There is plenty of evidence but things have changed on the big mountains for sure, for a while now the Nepalese gov't has had big, multi thousand dollar deposits needed pre-climb for the big ones like Everest. If you didn't pack it out, you forfited the money. People now pack it out. My knowledge of trash left by those groups comes from friends describing it to me of seeing French groups leave trash. Here is a quick internet story, I'm sure you can find plenty more: Asians pick up the trash story: JAPAN: May 28, 2002 TOKYO - Mountain climbers from Japan, South Korea and Georgia cleared two tonnes of garbage from Mount Everest in the past two weeks, a fraction of the trash littering the world's highest peak, Kyodo news agency said yesterday. Among the oxygen bottles, gas cartridges and plastic cluttering the South Col Valley were bottles left there for a half century, dating back to a 1952 failed bid by a Swiss expedition to reach Everest's peak, Kyodo said. That was one year before Sir Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay Sherpa conquered the mountain. The cleaning expedition also buried two bodies - an Indian mountaineer and a Nepali Sherpa. Displaying some of the garbage in the Nepali capital of Kathmandu, team leader Ken Noguchi told reporters there were still four to five tonnes of garbage at the Col, the point from which the final trail to the Everest summit begins. Those returning from Mount Everest say the mountain that lures climbers from around the world each year is littered with more than 100 tonnes of garbage. "We found more garbage on the Nepalese side than on the north side in Tibet," Kyodo quoted Noguchi as saying. Noguchi, who has already led two cleaning expeditions to Everest from the Tibetan side and collected a total of about three tonnes of trash, plans to clean the base camp of Mount Manaslu in north central Nepal next spring, Kyodo said. " End of that story. There have been regular trash cleanups in those parts of the world for some time now and between the awareness and deposits, I'm sure it's gotten better. Hopefully it has changed in the other remote corners of the world, but I have not been to Fitzroy and cannot say, so as they say, your results may vary. I have heard the same stories from friends in Alaska though. Notice I didn't say All French climbers are anti-environment. You and everybody you know may be super clean, but as they say, it only takes 1 bad apple and the whole country gets a bad rap. If I'd only heard this once and it was only 1 story, that would be different, but thats not the case. My news is old though. Like me. You asked. Don't think I dislike French people or culture either. I've been to Paris twice in the last 3 years just to hang out and love the place and the people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimL Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 (edited) My point regarding leaving trash is that people from every country have trashed the mountains. No need to label. I hope Patagonia is not trashed. If I'm lucky, I'll be there next year. Edited March 27, 2006 by TimL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 I hope Patagonia is not trashed. Depends on your opinion of industrial scale tourism. Yosemite with shitty weather. The major areas like Paine/Fitzroy aren't really "remote" anymore, but the image is useful for marketing. Plenty of other places to go that are though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 My point regarding leaving trash is that people from every country have trashed the mountains. No need to label. I hope Patagonia is not trashed. If I'm lucky, I'll be there next year. Yeah I don't disagree. Wow, Patagonia, awesome, I hope you have a great trip and climbing: pray for some good weather. Looking at this group of pics should help get your stoke on. Thank's for making my dream of a pic on this thread a reality Pup! Check that guy freeing that roof. Wow. (I'm bracing now for the inevitable "Looks too hard, probably hang-dogged it" comments) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crackers Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 The favresse brothers are mutants... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalius Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 Good patagonia pics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 http://www.flickr.com/photos/andykirkpatrick/sets/72057594093731406/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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