mattp Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Jay, isn't your last proposal a lot like what we tried with Saddam? I still think you're mistaking a sugar pill for the panacea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted February 17, 2006 Author Share Posted February 17, 2006 At the end of the day, unless folks realize that the death-threats, the suicide bombings, the honor killings - etc tarnish their image far more effectively than any cartoon ever could - the same backwardness, stagnation, and decline that compelled so many to emmigrate to Europe in the hopes of something better will be theirs to endure indefinitely. Which is precisely why most muslims in Europe moved there! Having their immigrant goals of transcending bigotry and zealotry thrown back in their faces by zenophobic danish bigots who refuse to acknowledge any of their positive contributions to danish society pisses off and alienates the would-be assimilators off. Nobody deserves congratulations for doing a normal job well, but everybody appreciates it. From what i hear, the islamic immigrants to northern europe would at least like to be thanked for providing doner as an alternative to sausages for street food rather than be constantly discriminated against and treated as subhuman by other citizens or area residents. On a side note, i've never seen more bigotry and racial hatred than between east germans and turkish germans. Its really crazy and frankly kind of scary. Personally, I think the dossier of the Danish Imams is baroque, bizarre and mostly very wrong. It's also really really weird. Read it, you'll see what I mean when I say it seems to have been written by a bipolar nutjob who wanted to catastrophically destroy the reputation of anybody who read it and took it seriously. It's worse than the protocols of zion. I think that your views on Iran are very rosy colored glasses. The Danes and Swedes I met over 15 years ago talked about this problem, so it's no surprise that the Arab immigrants are frustrated - but the bottom line is that they need way, way better leadership - more MLK, less Malcom X. If your public leaders favor an agenda which rejects assimilation and cooperation in favor of rejectionism and violence, it's not surprising that the native population will react badly to that. I'm sure that things can be tough for them there, but these are the freaking Danes and Swedes we're talking about here, it's not like the immigrants are confronting anything like the antebellum South. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted February 17, 2006 Author Share Posted February 17, 2006 Jay, isn't your last proposal a lot like what we tried with Saddam? I still think you're mistaking a sugar pill for the panacea. Well - we are talking theoretical here. I think that they key to making the Islamic-Radical Leper Colony strategy work is making the deterrent robust enough to keep the mayhem confined to their own borders, while remaining hands off enough so that there's no mistaken who's responsible for their wretched lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Jay, you are going kumbaya on us! You want Muslim leadership to be like MLK? You want the U.S. to reduce foreign intervention in the Middle East? Greater cooperation with our allies? What is this world coming to? This is not the JayB we've come to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 (edited) [quote I think that one of the biggest obstacles to political reform in the Middle East is the fact that most of the countries there still adhere to the old, discredited, pan-Arab socialist model cooked up by Nasser. The staggering failures of this model played a huge role in generating both the popular discontent, and the political repression in the middle East. What you blithely choose to ignore is our role in continually proping up of these regimes. Ya gotta love Cheney's quote in James Mann's excellent group biography - Rise of the Vulcans. When a Pentagon official told Cheney towards the end of the first Gulf War"You know we could change the government and put in a democracy" Cheney's reply was that the Saudis would object. And the Iraqi intifada was allowed to be crushed. But don't let the facts get in your way. Edited February 17, 2006 by Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted February 17, 2006 Author Share Posted February 17, 2006 Not sure which facts you're disputing here, Jim, but consult the rankings of political freedom, and those of economic freedom, and crank out a regression analysis for yourself. As far as the corrupt regimes go - the fact that heavy state control of the economies is the principle engine of corruption should be part of your analysis - given that most politicians have to make some concessions to the world that exists when making choices, it seems like it would be rather difficult to engage in any contact with the Middle East at all under the terms you've laid out. Pressing for free trade agreements would help transfer power into the hands of the people and out of the hands of the autocrats, but I don't see you supporting such a move either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 No one is arguing that democracy for these countries would be a bad thing. Opps, except the US, particularly when it comes to the oil producers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Spy versus Spy? As Emeril says "Let's bring it up a notch!" Bam! BAM! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Tuff Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 As Emeril says "Let's bring it up a notch!" Bam! BAM! Whoah, quoting Emeril. Edgy, edgy, edgy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted February 18, 2006 Author Share Posted February 18, 2006 "More and More Moderate Muslims Speak Out in Denmark" Dozens of Danish Muslims are joining the network of moderate Muslims, the Demokratiske Muslimer (Democratic Muslims). About 700 Muslims have already become DM members and 2,500 Danes have expressed their will to support the network. The initiative has caused anger among the Danish imams and their leader, Ahmad Abu Laban, who have referred to the moderates as “rats.” The imams feel that they are beginning to lose their control over part of the Muslim population. Moderates such as Kamran Tahmasebi say they have had enough of fanatic Islamism and its intimidation of the Muslim immigrants in Denmark. “It is an irony that I am today living in a European democratic state and have to fight the same religious fanatics that I fled from in Iran many years ago,” Mr Tahmasebi says. He came to Denmark as a refugee in 1989. Today he works as a social consultant and is very grateful for the life Denmark has made it possible for him to have. He says he no longer wants to keep a low profile to avoid attracting the attention of the imams. The cartoon affair was an incentive for him to stand up and warn against the Islamist imams in Denmark, whom he says are damaging the integration process with their misleading criticism of Danish values and norms. Mr Tahmasebi is one of the people involved in the newly established network of moderate Muslims in Denmark led by Naser Khader, a member of the Danish Parliament. He says he is well aware of the risk he is taking by siding with Mr Khader, who has for a long time been living under police protection. But Mr Tahmasebi feels it is his duty to take part in this debate. “Naser Khader has carried this responsibility for too long. I share his beliefs and now I want to stand up and say so. Apart from that, as a parent I feel a responsibility to fight, so that my children will not have to live under Islamist dogmas. They shall be able to live free in this country.” Mr Tahmasebi adds that he believes the imams are one of the biggest problems Denmark is facing today. The Danish Prime Minister, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, will be meeting the leaders of the moderate Muslims today (February 13) to discuss the cartoon affair. The Danish government has suspended all dialogue and cooperation with the Danish imams on the integration process. Some of the strongest protests against the twelve Muhammad cartoons [see them here, halfway down the page] came from imams who are members of the government’s official integration think tank. “We want the newspaper [Jyllands-Posten, which published the cartoons last September] to promise that this will never happen again, or this will never stop,” says imam Ahmad Akkari, the spokesman for the radical Muslim organizations in Denmark which led the protest against the cartoons. However, the deliberate lies which imams, such as Abu Laban and Akkari, used to incite worldwide hatred against Denmark have served as a wake-up call for the Danish government. “I believe it has become obvious that the imams are not the people we should be listening to if we want integration in Denmark to work,” Rikke Hvilshøj, the Danish Integration Minister, has said." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lI1|1! Posted February 18, 2006 Share Posted February 18, 2006 we interupt this spray to bring you a seriously red beard: whoa! that's a really red beard! this guy's one of the Hamas members just elected to the Palestinian parliament. politics aside, i'm seeing a replay of the scene in goldmember where austin powers can't ignore fred savage's birthmark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted February 18, 2006 Share Posted February 18, 2006 arr you could be a pirate with a red beard like that me hearties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dechristo Posted February 18, 2006 Share Posted February 18, 2006 "More and More Moderate Muslims Speak Out in Denmark" Dozens of Danish Muslims are joining the network of moderate Muslims, the Demokratiske Muslimer (Democratic Muslims). About 700 Muslims have already become DM members and 2,500 Danes have expressed their will to support the network. The initiative has caused anger among the Danish imams and their leader, Ahmad Abu Laban, who have referred to the moderates as “rats.” The imams feel that they are beginning to lose their control over part of the Muslim population. Moderates such as Kamran Tahmasebi say they have had enough of fanatic Islamism and its intimidation of the Muslim immigrants in Denmark. “It is an irony that I am today living in a European democratic state and have to fight the same religious fanatics that I fled from in Iran many years ago,” Mr Tahmasebi says. He came to Denmark as a refugee in 1989. Today he works as a social consultant and is very grateful for the life Denmark has made it possible for him to have. He says he no longer wants to keep a low profile to avoid attracting the attention of the imams. The cartoon affair was an incentive for him to stand up and warn against the Islamist imams in Denmark, whom he says are damaging the integration process with their misleading criticism of Danish values and norms. Mr Tahmasebi is one of the people involved in the newly established network of moderate Muslims in Denmark led by Naser Khader, a member of the Danish Parliament. He says he is well aware of the risk he is taking by siding with Mr Khader, who has for a long time been living under police protection. But Mr Tahmasebi feels it is his duty to take part in this debate. “Naser Khader has carried this responsibility for too long. I share his beliefs and now I want to stand up and say so. Apart from that, as a parent I feel a responsibility to fight, so that my children will not have to live under Islamist dogmas. They shall be able to live free in this country.” Mr Tahmasebi adds that he believes the imams are one of the biggest problems Denmark is facing today. The Danish Prime Minister, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, will be meeting the leaders of the moderate Muslims today (February 13) to discuss the cartoon affair. The Danish government has suspended all dialogue and cooperation with the Danish imams on the integration process. Some of the strongest protests against the twelve Muhammad cartoons [see them here, halfway down the page] came from imams who are members of the government’s official integration think tank. “We want the newspaper [Jyllands-Posten, which published the cartoons last September] to promise that this will never happen again, or this will never stop,” says imam Ahmad Akkari, the spokesman for the radical Muslim organizations in Denmark which led the protest against the cartoons. However, the deliberate lies which imams, such as Abu Laban and Akkari, used to incite worldwide hatred against Denmark have served as a wake-up call for the Danish government. “I believe it has become obvious that the imams are not the people we should be listening to if we want integration in Denmark to work,” Rikke Hvilshøj, the Danish Integration Minister, has said." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted February 18, 2006 Share Posted February 18, 2006 (edited) Then there is this link. But even better is this one. The Bethnal Green rep in the HOC is Galloway. From her name it is probable she comes from a mideast background => probably Islamic heritage. Jay - Voltaire and the rise of public opinion as a force are more helpful than references to Jefferson or Madison. Edited February 18, 2006 by Peter_Puget Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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