Bolt-mania

[Dru]

being a non-local climber i'm not going to vote tho' if i could i would vote for removal, but has anyone thought about contacting the first ascencionist or first free ascencionist for their opinions?? or does the opinion of the FA party matter to you? and when you mean consensus do you mean of cascadeclimbers or of 'all' Wa. climbers??

[This message has been edited by Dru (edited 05-18-2001).]

[jblakley]

AlpineK

I've never done DDD but it sounds like it definitely has lost it's character by the retro-bolting. I would say if the original routesetter did not retro bolt it or was not consulted for the retro and it can be restored without scarring it too bad, then a little chop chop may be in order. I would hate to see no ethics enforced. Everybody would suffer if there was no respect. It's just a f&*)ing complex issue.

[pope]

Hey Jens,

I know the guy who bolted Dan's Not-So-Dreadful Direct. I promised not to disclose his name (his request). He's pretty sure the route has never been climbed without top-rope inspection and/or pre-placed gear, and this was one of his justifications for bolting it (along with a few other specious arguments). He watches these boards and I'd bet he'd like to know how you did it. Makes little difference to me, and I don't buy the argument that if nobody has flashed it in perfect style, then it deserves bolts. I'm sure it's a bold lead (used to be anyway) in just about any style. Hats off to you for being so audacious.

p.s. I know how you did ROTC! Hey remember?

[Dru]

What's wrong with headpoint style?

So you know these guys - did they ask the first ascencionists first, or what?

[pope]

One of the guys who climbed it in its natural state was Dan Lepeska...he was likely first. According to the bolter, Dan was asked and he approved. But then you've apparently got other dudes who have climbed it and weren't asked. And countless people who top-roped it and left it as a testament to lunacy and skill or whatever. And they weren't asked. Actually, a survery was done but it sounded pretty exclusive..you had to be in a certain club so to speak. The bolter reported that only two people surveyed had a problem with it.

[Guest]

Hey Guys, all of you (and you all seem to be guys):

I started this dang post so I'm going to say a few things more:

"Peter Puget": You fancy yourself a logician but I don't find your argumentation fully convincing nor your historical comments completely accurate. And why not drag in Index and any other damn topic I feel like?: this is a discussion board and I think my initial comments have drawn out a wide range of interesting perspectives which is certainly one of the leading values of these sorts of forums. I do very much appreciate your thoughtfulness and comments.

Changing attitudes "with honey" is only one possible strategy. Awareness can also be awakened by blatantly pointing out what one feels is bunk and what is damaging. Anyone is free to disagree.

Hey Pope!

I think this business about asking permission from some first ascensionist before adding bolts is nonsense. The first ascencionist has no necessary monopoly on ethical values. So what if they say it's OK? Maybe they're wrong? Just think for yourself and do the right thing. What is the right thing?

And as far as concensus is concerned, how do you determine that? For example at Index, poll everyone who has climbed there this week? 5 times last year? or what the heck? And what if "the concensus" says bolt the hell out of anything you want? Unless you're a private land owner, in which case you can authorize whatever you want, there is going to be some environmental accountability.

Great questions about which we will never all agree, thus an unending ongoing dilemma.

By the way, here's what I feel is "the right thing":

There are only two BIG rules in climbing:

1) Do no harm physical harm to others.

2) Do no physical harm to the environment.

Bolting certainly falls into the latter category. It used to be that EVERY bolt was an ethical decision. Now there are many who feel compelled to rappel down rocks and drill whatever with a machine.

Doug Scott wrote a very insightful essay about bolting a couple of years ago. If I had the reference, I would certainly share it. Perhaps someone else does.

There is also a process of normalization that has been taking place. With the spread of sport climbing and rock gyms, few of the many new climbers will question the legitimacy of bolting because "that's how it's done", or so it seems to be the status quo. Enough for now.

Good discussion...all of you. Even Pope and Mr. Puget. By the way, "Pope", quit staring at my chest.

 

[Peter_Puget]

Well then help me improve my train of thought and correct my facts.

[pope]

Donna,

How dare you patronize me you little bitch. Read the post and (after removing your foot from your pie hole) notice that I too DISAGREE with the notion that the first ascentionist has jurisdiction over future fixed protection additions. When many people gather the guts, skill and determination necessary for such a lead, they have established a standard for others to emulate and as such, they propel the route into part of the local tradition. When many climbers eschew bolts and respect a bold lead by top-roping, they too add to the tradition of respect and style. In no way does the first ascentionist have the right to ignore this tradition and grant permission for rock-damaging bolts.

I'm quite capable of thinking for myself and from the quality of your analysis I might suggest that you allow me do the lion's share of your thinking too.

[max]

Donna:

When I said local, I meant LOCAL. Do you live in index? great. do you live in seattle. Well then F$%k off!

Another thing: just because "it used to be that EVERY bolt was an ethical decision" doesn't mean that that's the right thing. It used to be that littering was fine, but that doesn't mean it's the right thing or that by choosing to not litter, we've deviated from a purer ethical state. (Logicize that!)

And chill on the "Hey Guys, all of you (and you all seem to be guys):" comments. What the hell is that supposed to me? And Don't tell me "your reading too much into" What the spank am I supposed to do when you make a comment like that without clearly stating you point. Or am I to assume you just wrote that for no reason, with no point in mind. In which case, the likelyhood you can form and articulate any coherent thought is reduced.

Now I'll make the disclaimer A.k., pope and others have made:

I'm not that hot on bolts either, but it really pisses me of when somebody gets a rightous stick in their bum and rants! Go chop bolts or what ever, just don't rant (and I'm not talking to you in particular, Donna) Keep it on the low down! (just like I have in this post ).

[pope]

Max,

Donna says, "Hey guys(it seems you are all guys)....", because Donna is a girl, which makes her perspective at least a little unique. Duh.

HEAD-POINT: is that Canadian for some kind of coming-out ritual?

[This message has been edited by pope (edited 05-18-2001).]

[z]

Missed this whole online topic because we were out climbing the past few days, but we encountered some of these new and retro bolted climbs the past few days.

Someone bolted a sport climb to the right of dog leg crack on alphabet rock that was a TR line previously and goes clean on gear. Not thoughtful imaginative gear, but plain old putting stuff in the cracks. There is one bolt out of the 8 or so that could be left in place, but the rest should probably be removed.

I am curious myself who found it neccessary to start doing all this bolting?

[Guest]

Gee Whiz! So much anger out there! No personal animosity here! ..just trying to invigorate a debate about something I happen to find very disturbing!

And you, Max, I don't live in @#$@% Seattle or @#$#Q$%#$Index and as far as I'm concerned it's irrelevant. I don't care who lives in Index because no one there owns the wall, and I'm still entitled to my opinion as a climber. How many people who live in Index climb there anyway. I would venture to say that the overwhelming majority come from elsewhere.

Pope: you're pathetic. "Shut your pie-hole!" Really! Is that any way to talk to a lady? did you learn that in a Rat Pack movie? I've done my time with you, pal, and your problem seems to be that I didn't let you into my pie-hole. I'm new to this bulletin board and I've seen some fine points, many from people I disagree with, but you, sir, .......never mind.

Big Lou you're not!

Thank goodness for people like Peter Puget, Max, Dru and some of these other folks who can throw in their two cents worth without getting their PANTIES in a MASSIVE WAD.

- Donna

[AlpineK]

Max,

Your quite uptight. If you climb at an area a lot then that gives you the right to comment on the developement and ethics of the area. With your logic you should only comment on climbing at Larabie. (SP?)

[TimL]

OK - Its time to add my 2 cents into this soap opera drama of a website. Just got back from Leavenworth. 2 things I noticed:

1.) DDD goes on gear - no doubt about it. It sounds like several people have had the nerve to do it in style.

2. The route next to Dogleg crack has been a top rope problem for as long as I can remember. Also, it goes on gear as well. I did it yesterday on gear.

To the bolters, if you want to bolt something find a new crackless area and bolt it. Use creativity and find and area does not already have established lines. Then you can spray about it on this site and everyone will go to it. A win/win situation. Climbing is not safe. Adding bolts to a route to bring it down to your skill level or level of acceptable risk is as one famous climber put it " a crime of the impossible".

Tim Lawrence

 

[max]

I looked through the smiles options for a post heading... dang. no middle finger.

Hey AlpineK:

I think someone else commented on this before: looking at someones profile doesn't tell you shit about where they live, let alone where they climb. I'm not going to get into the last three continuous months I just spent climbing outside of the state, I'm just going to leave it "you don't know squat about meor where or how I climb!" Idiot. Really, do you think that makes you look smart?

Pope: ditto on the "idiot" for you. try reading it again and just for fun, assume you didn't catch the real meaning the first time. Maybe you'll catch on.

And you people have missed my point about the locals thing (probably my fault...)What I'm saying is locals have the say. I don't care if they comprise 2% of the climbing population, they get the say. What I forgot to add to my rant before was that the index people are the ones who get to say what happens at index. And for any particular area, if the locals want to "violate" it, it's thiers to do so. As I said before, this is difficult to defend because it is fundamental. Ever heard of "states rights?"

---"And you, Max, I don't live in @#$@% Seattle or @#$#Q$%#$Index and as far as I'm concerned it's irrelevant."

yes. This is missing my point. It is relevant. Ever heard of land ethic? It might seem ironic to quote Leponld in defending (at least as a Devil's advocate) bolters, but those that are most intimate with a land are most deserving to direct it's future (ok, it's not a quote...)

---"I don't care who lives in Index because no one there owns the wall,"

see my comment above.

---"and I'm still entitled to my opinion as a climber."

Yes, your entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't mean anyone should listen.

A final note (and sorry if it seems cliche "sportsman"-like): Nice work Top Step.

[pope]

Donna,

You may be a hot little package, but it's time we have an understanding: I am over you, the way you wish you were over me. And I know you left that bikini out by my hot tub just so that YOU KNOW WHO would find it. You're still bent out of shape 'cause I kicked you off the '98 Cirque Expedition, but your hot-blooded ways were creating too much intrigue around camp. What was I to do?

Don't even preach to me about the classy way to treat a lady: you're not a lady, and you ain't classy. And hey, you may think that Canadian guy Dru treats you with respect, but I'm sure he's just trying to get you in the sack.

Max: you could benefit from some freshman composition class at your local community college. They might teach you how to think on paper.

And for those who think I'm way off the topic of this post, let me make the point I really sat down to write: bolts suck. The end. Bye bye.

[jblakley]

And that brings us to the end of another new episode of MTV's "The Real World - Craggin'"

[AlpineK]

J,

I would in no way suggest removing bolts at Vantage. Thats what people like there, so good for them. I've clipped a number of bolts at Vantage Exit 38, Smith ect. Sport climbing is pretty fun.

Everything in its place thats what I say and DDD is no place for bolts given the areas history. Like I said I'm not running out to remove bolts. I vote for chopping the bolts on DDD, but I would like to see a consensus on this action befor anyone proceeds. An arbitrary decision to chop is just as bad as the decision to place the bolts in the first place.

[Retrosaurus]

I cast my vote for removal of the DDD bolts, although I'm not going to run out there to do it without a concensus either.

[ScottP]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dru:

(snip)

they can probably make no-trace, stick -on, removable bolts out of this stuff too. the old era of drilled holes may end and make all our ethics obsolete!!

[/b]

---

Reminds me of my first trip to the Valley in the early 80's...

there was a ladder of loops of quarter inch webbing superglued up the back side of the Columbia Boulder in Camp 4. Those guys sure were hard core about body weight placements.

[Guest]

Bye Bye, Pope! Glad to see you drop out of the discussion. What a punk! Dragging our personal lives into a forum about bolting, eh? Just to keep the record straight, you didn't kick me off the Cirque expedition, I left after YOU CRAPPED IN YOUR OWN SLEEPING BAG. Lazy bastard couldn't even bother to get out of the tent! Can you imagine someone HOLDING A nalgene BOTTLE UNDER HIS BUTT, in his sleeping bag in a ridiculous attempt to relieve himself because it was "just too cold outside"? And then missing? That was just the final straw in a whole, (or should I say hole)series of lame incidents with you and your incompetent buddies. I bet you still sleep in that bag, don't you!

I'd say we're now "tit for tat", Pope, but I know you'd only reply with "I've got some tat for you...."

You can make disparaging remarks about women if you like, just don't bitch at your mom if you expect her to continue to let you live in her basement for the next dozen or so years.

So, how about that bolting?

[jon]

I thought I'd maybe offer a little different perspective on the issue, which someone in another thread did on the snowmobile issue http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000318-2.html. I know how I feel about the bolting issue, but my style of climbing isn’t the issue here.

In college I took a lot of biology and some ecology classes, though no geology (at the UW the intro class was called Rocks for Jocks!). Being in science I guess one of the things I’ve become aware of is how really insignificant each of are in respect to time, i.e. creation of the cosmos, evolution of life etc., but how great of an impact we can have on our surroundings in the little time we are here. I guess what I’m saying is the rock has been here a very long time, and when you die, the rock will still be there…. for a very long time. You drill a hole in the rock, bolt or chopped, it will be there FOREVER, even after you kick the bucket.

I’ve got an idea, hey Doc and Mike let’s jump in the Delorian and go to the FUTURE. Do we have the 3.1 jigawatts to jump the space time continuum? We sure do Doc, I’ve rerouted all the power we are sending to California! Enter date into computer: May 19, 2201 (that would be my birthday but I’ll be dead for the last 100 years!)

In this issue of Climbing eZine Chris Sharma IV climbs the worlds first 5.16d.

Article: Chris Sharma IV following in families footsteps leads worlds toughest climb at (enter your favorite crag here). The crux move comes next to an nice but unused finger crack, where he underclings to a bolt hole, heel hooks to a another hole three feet up and, then dynos 8 feet up to a pair of bolt holes, latching with his middle fingers (insert picture of Sharma flying thought the air middle fingers extended). Quoted after descending the route, “I’m glad those guys thought ahead when designing those bolts to make them big enough for my middle finders.” He named the route Hilti Chopsui Middle Finger Fahqu.

[This message has been edited by jon (edited 05-19-2001).]

[AlpineK]

Yo Max,

Your last post certainly makes you look like an idiot.

 

I'd say more, but I just spent the last few hours at the Sunset drinking beer and listening to music, and I don't want my alcoholic haze to fuel the discussion.

Off the subject: there sure are some funky ass shows at the Sunset in Ballard. You all should check them out... except Max.

 

[Retrosaurus]

The only overwhelming concensus is that everyone who posts here is an idiot.

[crazyjizzy]

I had trouble following Max's logic. I think he said that the only people who have a vote in the climbing ethics of Index (or anywhere else) are the two climbers who happen to live in Index. Max is a moron, and everyone who has climbed at Index for any amount of time is important, no matter what their zip or area code is.

I also don't think that the fact that the dolts who retro'ed DDD had Dan Lepeska's permission is at all pertainent. I bet Dan hasn't climbed in at least ten years, and subsequent ascents such as Jen's gives him a footing almost equal to Lepeska.