syudla Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Your thoughts. Good/bad/truly suck? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstone Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 I've had mine for a while, they're fine, not super supportive, but the froint points stick well and I've had no problems with the bindings. Not blown away with them, but have had no problems either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 What you looking to use them for? What do you own currently? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syudla Posted December 22, 2005 Author Share Posted December 22, 2005 What you looking to use them for? What do you own currently? Technical ice/mixed Old worn out Rambos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Never used them, but when I was in the market it looked like they had some of the same design problems that made the Switchblade on of the worst crampons of all time, most notably secondary points that are so recessed that you have to drop your heel 60 degrees below vertical before they'll engage the ice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstone Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Never used them, but when I was in the market it looked like they had some of the same design problems that made the Switchblade on of the worst crampons of all time, most notably secondary points that are so recessed that you have to drop your heel 60 degrees below vertical before they'll engage the ice. Â dosen't that just enforce good technique Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrogdortheBurninator Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 I have a pair that I got as replacements for my recalled Montrail Crampons. The montrails were the first vertical front point crampon I owned, so that is all I can compare to. With my boots, I do notice more fatiguing than with the montrail, but that may be more a function of boot stiffness than crampon stiffness. They supposedly fixed the short secondary points last year, however they are still pretty shallow compared to some other 'pons. I have used them twice now. They seem to penetrate pretty well and overall seem pretty good. I was worried they wouldnt be secure on my boots, but the seem to hold very solidly. I'd be interested to hear from somone with the first gen and second gen bionics to see how much they really improved the secondary point design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 What you looking to use them for? What do you own currently? Technical ice/mixed Old worn out Rambos  Bionic is a good crampon. I have a pair of raptors (bionic bolt version) that so far am happy with... haven't had them that long though.  Consider demoing the Petzl M10. Did you not like the Rambo? They offer a comp version also.  Also: do you want something with a replaceable front point? Are fixed front points okay?  One thing you will notice between the Bionic and the Rambo is the "rake point" is positioned further back on the bionic... the rambo has it further forward. This will result in you having to high step further to rake holds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhyang Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 One thing you will notice between the Bionic and the Rambo is the "rake point" is positioned further back on the bionic... the rambo has it further forward. This will result in you having to high step further to rake holds. Â I've never seen / heard of this technique before ("raking holds", "rake point", etc). I'm wondering if you could describe it - maybe it's also called something else ? Dumb questions, I know ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordop Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Never used them, but when I was in the market it looked like they had some of the same design problems that made the Switchblade on of the worst crampons of all time, most notably secondary points that are so recessed that you have to drop your heel 60 degrees below vertical before they'll engage the ice. Agreed. Another odd quirk I have noticed with them is that if you put the anitbotts on, a narrowing gap of about 7mm is created between the front and secondary points. This is PERFECT for jamming an 8mm half rope into and I got ROYALLY fucked once when the rope "found" its way there. Watch your feet obviously, but it'll happen sooner or later Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 (edited) A rake point is any point pointed backwards/in the opposite direction of the front points. Â They are easy to spot as they are serrated in a manner that would only engage if one had the sole of their foot parallel to the wall. Â A good example is the Petzl Dart: Â Counting from the front point back you see at number 3 (don't count that tiny little one) you see a point that seems pointing in the wrong direction... that is it wouldn't do much kicking in ice. Â However on vertical to overhanging terrain you can step your foot above a hold and hook the hold with the point. The serrations on the backside of the crampon allow you to "grasp" the hold and not just slide off. Â Another way you can use this point is raking... you move the rake point above a hold (vertical cracks in overhung terrain are great for this) and pull you foot back towards you... as if you were raking imaginary leaves with your feet. The point should become lodged in the crack and allow you to then pull down on it. Â Interesting sidenote: the bionic sports one of the biggest rake points... so big one can basically use it like a spur... Gadd pisses and moans about spurs but hangs from his rake points all the time... Hmmm... Â BD Bionic Rake Point: Edited December 22, 2005 by John Frieh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Rereading that perhaps a better way to say that is a back pointed point can be used for raking as well as other mixed techniques. Â Isaac and Gadd's books both have plenty of illustration and much better descriptions of raking and other mixed climbing techniques. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhyang Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Oh ! Very cool - thanks for the info !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 A "rake point" is a term used by ice farmers to describe an ascent of a mixed line that grooms the ice and puts in the pick holes for someone else's redpoint. EG: Â "Dude, is that rig M10? Can you go up and rakepoint it for me and hang some draws on those fixed screws?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Â Hope the sendbot is wearing ice skate fruit boots! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squid Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 fwiw- Â I've had the Bionics for 3 years, and had some modest success with them. I just spent a long weekend in Lillooet where I had an opportunity to use my Bionics side-by-side with a friend's M10's. Â As noted above, the two are very similiar, but with more aggressive secondary points on the M10's. Â As the weekend went on, I used the M10's more often, and preferred them. My technique was definitely rusty in the beginning of the weekend, but I also believe my frontpoints sheared out less frequently because of the M10's secondary points. Â All things equal, I'd recommend the M10's over the Bionics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrogdortheBurninator Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 fwiwiwfiwif - Â If squid's Bionics are 3 years old, they should have the older secondary point design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielHarro Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 I own two pairs of the bionics ans I really like te replaceable front points so when I go to dry tool night I dont have to empty out my checking acount for some good times at Rocky Butte. John does have some good points on the "rake" point, I think it is personall prefrance. I think you would be happy with the bionics, or M10. Â Daniel Harro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYC007 Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 I would suggest the g-14, lighter then others in its class and works great and unlike the M-10 it has a a horizontal frame. The bad thing I have noticed about the bionics is the shorter secondary teeth compared to others, may only be an issue on steeper ground if not kicking hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syudla Posted December 23, 2005 Author Share Posted December 23, 2005 Thanks everyone. You have confirmed my suspicions that I dont want bionics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbconlin Posted December 29, 2005 Share Posted December 29, 2005 I demo'ed Bionics and M10s before I purchased crampons. I actually would have prefered the Grivel G14, but they did not fit my boot due to the curl on the toe piece. Between the first two, I hated the Bionics and loved the M10s, which I bought. If I was doing it over again, I would also check out some of the new PetzlCharlet crampons, which do not have replaceable front points, but are lighter. If they fit your boots, I would really really look at the G14s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Interesting sidenote: the bionic sports one of the biggest rake points... so big one can basically use it like a spur... Gadd pisses and moans about spurs but hangs from his rake points all the time... Hmmm... BD Bionic Rake Point:  Hey all  I should have made it more apparent in my above post but my poke at Will Gadd was unfounded and if anything a tongue in cheek joke about the whole "spurs are aid" movement that Will has championed recently.  In addition to making it more clear that I was being sarcastic I should point out (and anyone who M climbs would know) that in the traditional sense of raking... to rake a hold one must keep their calf flexed in order to hang from that hold... yes your hands/forearms are getting a rest but you are still actively working to stay on the route... where as hanging from a spur doesn't require any energy (until you want to get out of it).  Though one could use the bionics rake point as a modified spur as I alluded to in the above post the number of holds that would allow this are few and far between... where as with a spur one can hang from just about anything.  Again: I was kidding around... my apologies to Will... I hope he understands that here at cc we aren't as PC as other boards and it was just a misunderstanding and that he can stop sending me PMs unless he wants to come on down to PDX for DT night! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgadd Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 No worries John, I really didn't expect a public statement, and a thorough one at that. I totally support mixed climbing whether done buck-naked at -30 or with an extension ladder and a rack of beers--although the second version sounds more fun to me... I'm not down with the, "My style is the only way and everybody else sucks" program, and my apologies if I give that vibe off, too much Red Bull isn't pretty sometimes. Â This board is good fun, I skulk around while surfing the net in hotel rooms regularly, always good for a few grins. Â I'm obviously pretty involved with BD and so can't say much about the Bionics, but I listen to what people honestly say about gear, especially outside of the box I live in. Â Best and I look forward to DT night one of these days, you all are MOTIVATED, yeah!! Â ps--despite the warm weather things are still really good here in the Rockies, anyone wanting specific info is welcome to email me, gadd@gravsports.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Yeah beeyotches! PDX DT night is world famous... well at least in CAN Â Get yer butt out to dt night so you can say you attended before all the sponsored climbers starting showing up and it became a scene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.