catbirdseat Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 If that crack photo that professor CBS posted is actually reasonably protected I bet everyone in this little playground brawl agrees the bolts are a monstrosity. and if anyone posts "you don't know anything about me" again I'm gonna puke I didn't come up with it first. I just posted a picture of the same from a different angle. This bolted crack represents the extreme case, about which few would disagree. I doubt even DFA would defend this particular instance, although his attitude would lead some to believe that his position to be all cracks are fair game. Quote
archenemy Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 You are telling me that you understand my subconscious better than I do? Hmm, I doubt it. You can't even figure out that I am a woman. And I am from Montana, and I have lived outside of civilization. Take your 50 bucks and buy yourself a clue. Ha! I was waiting for you to get back to him on this stuff! Sorry to keep you waiting, I hate to disapoint. And I missed the opportunity to post the "Hey, its a pin debate" as well. Good one SexChoc! Quote
Dru Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 If that crack photo that professor CBS posted is actually reasonably protected I bet everyone in this little playground brawl agrees the bolts are a monstrosity. and if anyone posts "you don't know anything about me" again I'm gonna puke I didn't come up with it first. I just posted a picture of the same from a different angle. This bolted crack represents the extreme case, about which few would disagree. I doubt even DFA would defend this particular instance, although his attitude would lead some to believe that his position to be all cracks are fair game. It's in the Owens River Gorge...that crack was probably bolted by Peter Croft. Quote
DCramer Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 (edited) Yikes a guy become incommunicado for awhile and come back to the typical CC.com spray fest. A few things should be noted. We added some bolts to Dana’s Arch because it was being beat to hell. (less than there are now and no anchor) Fingertip pulls had been transformed to thank god holds. As noted by MisterMo the nailing was A1 => flat out easy. We added some bolts. We figured the difference between A1 nailing and bolting is not really that great and we’d be saving the rock from more damage. We added the bolts 20+ years ago and as of last summer people continue to nail the route. This despite that section being called "free" in every guidebook since the mid ‘80s. ironically, the first time I met pope was when I heard “tap tap tap” of a hammer on a clean route at the Lower town Wall. Interested parties should search for a thread called “Rock Police” for the details. Is it a wilderness experience? Doubtful if the term wilderness is to have any meaning. Just before the base of Dana' is reached is a landing zone fuilled with broken bottles, trees and other debris thrown form the top. My fav item thrown off was a toilet. At the time most people simply were climbing up to the thread (The thread is no longer in existence; it was located near the top of the arch) and lowering off. The thread was a messy collection of slings. The rock up to there was of course badly damaged. The crack then turns vertical ends and a bolt ladder with a couple of bomber hook moves continues to Cheeto Ledge. Would pins have worked? Doubtful. One problem with the Town Walls is pins are constantly being stolen. Since we bolted it I have actually seen a fp appear and disappear in the arch. Two summers ago I recleaned a route I put up in the early 80s. It started off with a thin arch the first few moves were protected by a fp. Someone removed the fp and took a 3 inch scallop out of the rock in the process. Now it is very hard not to use this chipped hold. On Bat Skins I placed a couple of Kbs to protect a stemming section. They were almost immediately stolen. Bat Skins is in my opinion one of the classic WA stemming test pieces. Far more difficult than any other stem I have done in the state. Classic and yet no one does it because the pins were stolen. Considering that people were still nailing Dana's last summer and chance of pins working is reduced an absurd possibility. Sport climbing related? We bolted it before the days of sport climbing. Could it have been climbed clean when we bolted it? Not by any reasonable definition of the term. Are pins as good as bolts? In general no. I would note that I read once in the (Seattle Times?) that once of the bolts we placed broke in a fall! Turns out in this particular case a pins might have been stronger. Would bolts be yanked within a week in Yosemite? Maybe. It depends on who placed them. Without getting caught up in triva just look and the cover of Yosemite frees Climbs. The cover shot is of Cookie Monster. Original rating: A3 no bolts. Freed without bolts too I believe. How does this differ from the Zipper? Bolts were added to the Zipper Roof during an ill fated free attempt. Creative scarring was also inlvolved. (Those pins do come in handy!) I mention this because the same thing happened on the vertical section of the Dana’s Arch p1. There is a variation pitch to the Zipper Roof that has bolts that is not what I am referring to. This activity was most definitely related to the rise in sport climbing. I can clearly remember being told that I did not know how to put up modern routes” while debating the worth of some modern routes. At the time the debate between climbers regarding these chipping was quite spirited. Somewhat dissillusioned I finally ask Clint to remove my name from FA credits in his guide thinking that people would ask why I wasn’t listed and I could give my anti-chipping sermon. Several years ago I ran into one of those on the other side of the debate and was angry with myself for letting our friendship get ruined over such crap. Cheers Edited December 12, 2005 by DCramer Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 If you've replaced and chopped a ton of bolts then you know looking at bolts tells you nothing about their reliability. How about anecdotal evidence? Years climbing: 13 and change Bolts fallen, hung, and repeatedly yarded on: too numerous to count Bolt failures experienced or witnessed: zero Bolt failures heard of: a handful, in Thailand, due to now well-publicized corrosion Obviously, ancient alpine bolts might be a different story, but if it has a buttonhead on it, you can reasonably guess it's less bomber than a Rawl 5-piece. Quote
RuMR Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 If you've replaced and chopped a ton of bolts then you know looking at bolts tells you nothing about their reliability. That unless you personally placed it, know the quality of the bolt/rock, and know the date it went in then you really don't know squat about one simply by it's looks. You'd also know that a lot of bolts are placed lousy. And the point isn't necessarily the longegvity of bolts, but of the inability to know when they've gone bad; how easy is it to verify that they are good and quickly fix it. My assumptions come from what you keep saying which indicate you know nothing about pins and for you're claims to boltmanship you appear to have learned precious little about them as well... joey joey joey, you should go back to hex machine nuts...they take a lot more skill to place than the newer stuff... goddamn u are an arrogant fuck... Quote
sexual_chocolate Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 hey rudy, should city park have been bolted to protect its rock quality? Quote
RuMR Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 If you've replaced and chopped a ton of bolts then you know looking at bolts tells you nothing about their reliability. How about anecdotal evidence? Years climbing: 13 and change Bolts fallen, hung, and repeatedly yarded on: too numerous to count Bolt failures experienced or witnessed: zero Bolt failures heard of: a handful, in Thailand, due to now well-publicized corrosion Obviously, ancient alpine bolts might be a different story, but if it has a buttonhead on it, you can reasonably guess it's less bomber than a Rawl 5-piece. joey runs into them all of the time...in fact, he just removed one with his teeth and upgraded it to a cracked eye kb, just to keep the sporting side of it intact... Quote
RuMR Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 hey rudy, should city park have been bolted to protect its rock quality? it needs neither pins nor bolts as the gear is just fine...granted, that gear placement was generated from pins... but, taking your question to an extreme, by adding the simple statement "should city park have been bolted to protect its rock quality because people are continuing to this day to drive pins into the crack"...i would say to bolt it and keep it in its current state as much as possible... Quote
DCramer Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 Ya pretty funny SC. I would only note our online conversation a few months ago regarding Dwarf Tossing. You quite clearly claimed it was a new line never climbed before and proclaimed it was one of the best routes at the Town Walls. What is odd is that except for a 10' section at the bottom it followed Snow White. Snow White was in every guide published since the mid '70s. Some friends and I freed a section of that route using obvious pin scars for nuts (ground up) in the late '80s. This was reported in all guidebooks since the late '80s as well. Despite the obvious pins scars, despite the fact that it was a long established route you claimed it was a completely new route. Yep you are a pretty perceptive guy. Anyway spray on! Quote
JosephH Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 Are pins as good as bolts? In general no. Exactly, and just to repeat what I've said several times now, that is exactly what I like about them - their lack of absoluteness. They can be placed as appropriate to the situation; it's not one size, one result solution for every problem. People stealing them can be an issue, but less so than ten years ago as few folks appear to know what to do with one these days. People steal hangers as well leaving studs, happens... Quote
RuMR Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 you argue both sides of the coin!!! Damn, you suck... First your big beef with bolts is there is no "certainty" with them and you can't check them...then you go and say that the reason you like pins is "their lack of absoluteness" even conceding, that yes, in general bolts are stronger (which blows the first half of your argument out of the water)???? wtf, dude? did yo' momma drop you on yer noggin? Did you crater on yer cranium???? Quote
sexual_chocolate Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 WTF are you blabbing about? pull up quotes that support your contentions; i'm too lazy to fact-check, but never do i recall having claimed dwarf tosser a "never-before-climbed line". how the hell would i know if it had ever been climbed before? and like i said before, the bolting was not something i unequivocally supported. that said, i still consider it brilliant, with fantastic climbing (although a bit too much stance/climb stance/climb repetition for my tastes). and, are you telling me you climbed it, btw? you freed the initial boulder start, freed through the low offset crux, freed the jump-move crux? is this what you're telling me? and what was the point of your post anyways? seems a bit off-topic, no? Quote
RuMR Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 its like driving pins into a stubborn crack... Quote
sexual_chocolate Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 no man, this cramer character needs some work too! but you'll have to hold the fort, cuz i gotta run and actually go do a little work before climbing. Quote
Dru Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 If you've replaced and chopped a ton of bolts then you know looking at bolts tells you nothing about their reliability. That unless you personally placed it, know the quality of the bolt/rock, and know the date it went in then you really don't know squat about one simply by it's looks. You'd also know that a lot of bolts are placed lousy. And the point isn't necessarily the longegvity of bolts, but of the inability to know when they've gone bad; how easy is it to verify that they are good and quickly fix it. My assumptions come from what you keep saying which indicate you know nothing about pins and for you're claims to boltmanship you appear to have learned precious little about them as well... joey joey joey, you should go back to hex machine nuts...they take a lot more skill to place than the newer stuff... goddamn u are an arrogant fuck... How many windshirts are in your quivers? Unless you guys post the number of windshirts you each have personally sold during your x # of years of retail experience it's all so much willy waving. Quote
RuMR Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 If you've replaced and chopped a ton of bolts then you know looking at bolts tells you nothing about their reliability. That unless you personally placed it, know the quality of the bolt/rock, and know the date it went in then you really don't know squat about one simply by it's looks. You'd also know that a lot of bolts are placed lousy. And the point isn't necessarily the longegvity of bolts, but of the inability to know when they've gone bad; how easy is it to verify that they are good and quickly fix it. My assumptions come from what you keep saying which indicate you know nothing about pins and for you're claims to boltmanship you appear to have learned precious little about them as well... joey joey joey, you should go back to hex machine nuts...they take a lot more skill to place than the newer stuff... goddamn u are an arrogant fuck... How many windshirts are in your quivers? Unless you guys post the number of windshirts you each have personally sold during your x # of years of retail experience it's all so much willy waving. sadly, i'm only qualified to own one windshirt and 3 neutrinos...also, i tend to leave those monthly on girth pillar...dammit...expensive habit... oh yeah; Quote
JosephH Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 RuMR, Again, it's obviously been a bit much for you to follow so we'll reduce it. When first installed (properly): Bolts - by design provide predictable bomber loading pretty much every time; one size fits all... Pins - by design provide total variability in loading strengths based on pin selection and placement skill/quality; basically the same spectrum of loading strengths as cam and stoppers. Fifteen years later: Bolts - you basically haven't a clue without bringing a ton of shit, pulling, and replacing it. Pin - pretty easy to visually inspect or test with an etrier or hammer; typically simple to reset with a couple of hammer blows. And inspite of owning a Hilti TE-6a, my personal protection protocol always has been and always will be: gear > pins > bolts and so far have never placed a bolt for protection. I have no problem with being a dinosaur in that respect... Quote
DCramer Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 Me SC - Frog Pond is nothing like SPM. You once claimed (on CC.com) that a retro bolted route at Index was the best "new" route at Index. How should an outside observer take your comments? SC And, it wasn't a claim, it was a statement of fact: Dwarf Tosser WAS the best new route at Index (no quotes needed). And it wasn't retro-bolted because before bolting, it didn't exist. Don't overlook this fact. Have you climbed it yet link I'll leave it to readers to decide who is spewing the shit. I would note that the clean pro attainable along the base of Dana's Arch was far more marginal than the stuff along Snow White. Anyway I think I am through with this thread. Cheers, Quote
RuMR Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 well....you have fun in your world...i'll have fun in mine... my experiences with bolts mirrors DFA's in the sense that i have never seen one pull or break despite a lot of abuse... I have pulled and broken pins though...and other fixed mank... dinosaurs usually go extinct for a reason... Quote
DCramer Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 Rudy - Max broke one on Oxygen (could it have been in the 80s?)and one pulled out on one of the Rap Wall routes. Both were 3/8". Quote
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