Fairweather Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 I do far more hiking/climbing than I do mountain biking. Frankly, I wonder why they even added mountain bikes to the middle fork snoqualmie trail plan! After all, they are closing down a road on the other side of the river. At the behest of the WTA! I suspect that's where the bikes will end up once that road shuts down and intolerant curmudgeons like Harvey call in and complain about how the aluminum horses ruined his day in the wild. WTA provides a great service, but it shouldn't give them USFS standing such that they have the power to join loco enviro groups and shut down an entire road system that is/was extremely popular and provided some of the best trailhead access in the state! The Middle Fork debacle was - and remains - a tipping point for me and how I view the entire enviro movement. WTA has become an environmental organization that masks as a 'trails organization'. WTA sucks. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 Bikes don't tear up trails a much as steel shoes and bikers usually don't crap in the trail. Horses don't build berms, drops, or create massive straight line erosion problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 If you leave your horse untethered, though, it might bolt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal_Con Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 Horses are aid! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 I second the claim that WTA is turning lots of trail in to roads. I think they have a tendency to not have a very strong wild-ness ethic as well as taking a bunch of weekenders/rei-gawkers our to build what they think a trail should look like. In the end you get 90% of the maintenece done within the first 2-3 miles of the TH and because of this short range you get too much work done. I was once on one of their crews and they told us we should be pruning all foilage back 10 feet from the trail. I told them I didn't want to do that and dediced to go for a hike instead. Sorry this has little to do with MTBs which I don't really have an opinion on. That's how it goes with volunteers that are there to work for just a day. The time it takes to reach the work area ends up using all the work time, so they have the paid workers do the work distant from the trailhead. If more volunteers were willing to camp out more needed work could be done. Another way to look at it is that the first two or three miles get most of the use as well. The old folks and the little kids benefit from an "over improved" trail that you or I wouldn't appreciate. I've had disagreements with the "experts" on trail specs. The notion that organic matter always has to be stripped down to mineral soil is one of them. If the section is well-drained, why bother? Pine duff is so nice to walk on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Schuldt Posted August 30, 2005 Author Share Posted August 30, 2005 A note about brush, shure it looks like hell at first, give it 5 years and it will be back. If you trim it back just a little it will be back next year and you wont be able to see the trail. Also think about the room needed for horses to pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 I usually just bunny hop the horses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downfall Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 (edited) A note about brush, shure it looks like hell at first, give it 5 years and it will be back. If you trim it back just a little it will be back next year and you wont be able to see the trail. Also think about the room needed for horses to pass. You sound like you work for the WTA. As thats just what they told me except I think they said 10 years. Why don't we just uproot any shrub or tree within 10 feet of the trail then we won't ever have to deal with it? Honestly I want the brush right along the trail I don't want 5 feet of clearance of each side of the trail just so I don't have to dodge a limb every now and then. The core probelm is that for the most part I think WTA people just want to feel good about what they are doing but don't have any real philosophy about the wilderness. So you get a buch of yahoos out there who think trimming brush on the first 3 miles of a trail is conservation (its not, BTW) and they drive home in the Subi felling like they've done their part yet they go through the rest of their life consuming crap, driving everywhere, getting their little suburban home with 1.5 acres of green grass and maybe purchasing a little vacation home in mazama (since they are green you know) and it fucks up the whole system. It lowers the bar of what really needs to be done so far that it has no meaning and no impact in the end. I'm probably generalizing a bit here so don't bother to point out the exceptions in WTA as there probably are some but I know that this is a big factor of what goes on. One story (I've got many): I volunteered on a WTA crew in 2000 at chatter creek trail out of icicle creek. Again, not much work to do within the first three miles so they decided that they should remove any boulders in the trail they came across. These were the rocks which stick up in the trail and you usually run across about 100 every mile. Normally its like the tip of the iceburg for what you see versus whats under the ground. But these WTA people decided they needed to be taken out. They spent the better part of the next two days digging out boulders which were generally about 3-4 feet in diameter (of which only about 3-5 inches were sticking above ground) and trundeling them down the hill. Luckily no one else was out hiking as the trundels definitly crossed several switchbacks and would have killed. These were WTA regulars; they talked like they were out doing this every weekend and they all knew each other. Edited August 30, 2005 by downfall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra_Commander Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 I am a pretty hardcore biker/commuter and I am so, so happy bikes are not allowed in wilderness areas. Keep 'em out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downfall Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 That's how it goes with volunteers that are there to work for just a day. The time it takes to reach the work area ends up using all the work time, so they have the paid workers do the work distant from the trailhead. If more volunteers were willing to camp out more needed work could be done. Another way to look at it is that the first two or three miles get most of the use as well. The old folks and the little kids benefit from an "over improved" trail that you or I wouldn't appreciate. I've had disagreements with the "experts" on trail specs. The notion that organic matter always has to be stripped down to mineral soil is one of them. If the section is well-drained, why bother? Pine duff is so nice to walk on! Last I heard, and please correct me if I'm wrong, there are only like 3-4 full time seasonal trail people in the Washington national forests. Don't think these dudes are gonna be getting to those thousands of miles of trail the WTA doesn't get to. For the crews I've worked on (NPS Yellowstone, NFS Wasatch NF) no one strips new tred down to mineral soil. Too much work. For any new tread we typically would try and make an obvious path (like rake out about 60% of the grass vegitation) and leave it at that. Boots of visitors take care of the rest. But like I mentioned before very little actual new tread is created. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Schuldt Posted August 30, 2005 Author Share Posted August 30, 2005 Pull your heads out of your asses and listen up! I have done many WTA work parties and never got any shit for being a biker. Some of the crew leaders also ride. You clowns are stuck in the 80s. We are building a sick trail on Grand Ridge that will be open to bikes. Oh, and while your heading up to your next climb don't forget who is working on the trails. Check this link for a trip report. http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/490404/an/0/page/1#490404 Take a close look at the pictures in the link, tread width 12" to 30". Hourses don't like stepping on boulders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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