Index bolting/ethics

[soulreaper]

I'd like to (hopefully) open a discussion (rather than a flame-war) about the recent bolting developments at Index. Recently, persons-who-will-remain-nameless have cleaned/added bolts on certain routes on the lower wall. Also, it seems, some lead bolts on other routes have been replaced by either the same or different people.

 

First off, I'd like to thank those involved for REbolting (I.E., the REPLACEMENT of an existing bolt) and also the cleaning of certain obscure routes. I see these as both ethical and integral to the enjoyment of Index climbing.

 

My dispute over the ethics of said persons is, to name a particular instance, their addition of an anchor at the base of Tadpole, a route above the first full pitch of Model Worker on the lower wall. The scenario is as follows:

 

At the top of Model Worker is a 4 bolt anchor: 2 rusty, extremely old 1/4 inch studs are flanked by newer, yet also rusty bolts/chains. 6 feet to the left is the Tadpole corner, where 2 new anchor bolts were added. In the corner is a PERFECT, parallel yellow alien/yellow TCU sized crack. These bolts are obviously unnecessary. A gear anchor would suffice. At the top of tadpole are two more older bolts with webbing on them that is obviously old and no rap rings/chains. My dilemma is two-fold: Why add useless anchor bolts for mere convenience, and why compound that by failing to upgrade the top anchor, at LEAST with newer webbing and an adequate rappel setup? I don't appreciate the laziness involved nor the frivolity of the bolting.

 

If anyone has any USEFUL input on this question, I'd like to hear it. As I wasn't involved in the formative climbin years at Index, I don't make the rules; however this certainly is a breach of ethics, it seems, unless those retrobolting anchors/routes have gotten explicit permission from the first ascentionists.

 

Darryl Cramer- I would expecially appreciate your opinion on this because of your history of climbing/hard work/sweat/blood/etc. in the Index area; that is, if you read this.

[JensHolsten]

Exactly my questions and sentiments Soulreaper. I think it is important that bolts are not added for mere convenience as they are at the base of Tadpole (you don't even need yellow aliens for the climb, so losing these pieces to the belay is fine). I am also discouraged that people would fail to upgrade nearby anchors. If you chose to upgrade the condition of a route finish the job. Clean up the existing anchors and bolts and pull the trash. The Full Model Worker belay is a great example. Whoever installed the rap bolts and chains (not the same people involved with Tadpole) left the crusty old bolts right next to the newer setup. This strikes me as a very half-assed approach to anchor replacement. Eight bolts total are found in the anchors of Full Model Worker and Tadpole when only four need to be there. On a another note, the reason the Full Model Worker anchor was not upgraded was because the folks involved in cleaning Tadpole accessed the climb via a new variation to Princley Ambitions. One or two bolts were added (I haven't taken a good look) to this 25 foot section of new climbing. I also was discouraged to notice this. In my opinion, variations need to be VERY worthy to accept new bolts. We don't need to climb and bolt every inch of rock on the lower wall. I would definetely like to hear other people's ideas on the issues mentioned. I think the recent bolting developments at Index are worthy of a constructive discussion.

[pope]

Jesus Christ! Moderators? MODERATORS! Move this to SPRAY at once!

[Off_White]

Sorry Pope, I already moved it from Spray to here, pity you've decided to spray rather than discuss.

[pope]

Sorry Pope, I already moved it from Spray to here, pity you've decided to spray rather than discuss.

 

What? You moved it? I thought this was Petey's Corner.

 

Anway, yeah, adding bolts (additional bolts) to free routes at Index happens ALL THE TIME and nobody should be surprised. If you complain about it here, you will be banned. OK, that's all I have to say about it. Good night.

[soulreaper]

This is about the level of intellect I expected going into this but I still believe it's possible to have a productive discourse if we can ignore all the white noise that is inevitably generated. Rather than "complaining" about bolting, this is meant to spur discussion about the accepted ethical situation at Index, specifically whether there is some sort of standard that has the tacit agreement of most people active in producing new routes and upgrading old ones. Someone make this worth all of our time, please.

[pope]

This is about the level of intellect I expected going into this but I still believe it's possible to have a productive discourse if we can ignore all the white noise that is inevitably generated. Rather than "complaining" about bolting, this is meant to spur discussion about the accepted ethical situation at Index, specifically whether there is some sort of standard that has the tacit agreement of most people active in producing new routes and upgrading old ones. Someone make this worth all of our time, please.

 

I would refer you to the WCC. They will tell you that they're making an effort to discourage the illegal bolting that occurs in wilderness areas. Outside of that, just remember that rock climbing is all about making your own rules.

 

[soulreaper]

That picture is certainly worth all of our words put together...

I guess what I mean by "ethical standards" is less about rules or laws and more about respect. As far as making one's "own" rules-if those include creating via ferrata on the Lower Town Wall, then I would certainly disagree. You can make your own "rules" as long as they don't adversely affect the rock. Holding oneself to higher standards is important; a respect for the beauty of the area and the chance to keep it that way was/is my motivation to seek an audience in the electronic bowels of the internet.

[pope]

You can make your own "rules" as long as they don't adversely affect the rock.

 

Well, that's where U&ICI2I...and probably most people who read this drivel agree that we shouldn't "adversely affect the rock" and that what we see in the photo I pasted qualifies as "adversely affecting the rock". But remember, there is a continent where via ferrata routes are seen as "improvements" to the natural walls, not adversity, in the same way American "climbers" have, in the last couple of decades, decided that sport climbing and its bolt trails are improvements. Our current attitude results from emulating climbers from Europe instead of taking pride in the 1970's clean-climbing ethic. Europe is home of the via ferrata....and perhaps predicts where American alpine sports are trending.

 

Forget your quest to find the current, local consensus at Index. How about a greater vision? How about making your own effort to steer the next generation of climbers in a direction that maximizes adventure and (all aspects of) difficulty, while simultaneously leaving the rock in tact for future generations? How about deciding to say, "F*&%k the current, local ethic. Let's aim for higher ground."?

[specialed]

Post deleted by Off_White

[soulreaper]

Pope-my values have been similar to what you describe and will continue to be. My hope is to somehow preclude any further damage to a place I enjoy and appreciate (Index). I knew that trying to discuss this was/is as frivolous as anything, as is evidenced by the growing level of sarcasm here. Case closed, at least as far as this posting crap is concerned.

[mec]

My thoughts on the whole bolting ethics are to just use common sense on what it good for everyone not just yourself. Over-bolting, and over-cleaning will just lead to more damage of the rock, more negative press, etc.

 

I completely agree with replacing existing bolts and anchors to bring them into the 21st century. However, one should not randomly go about this. The replacement should either consist of the single bad bolt, or the full route (including both anchors as necessary). To only do half is laziness. People may complain about the cost of bolts as the reason why they only did half, but I am sure if they posted here about their project, enough people would give to the cause to make the cost not too bad.

 

I also think that Index should not be grid bolted. There are many faces at Index that can be bolted, many variations to be climbed and such. However, this will just lead to chaos like Exit 38. There are so many good lines at Index, that hooking them together is not necessary. If you feel that you need to climb that blank space between climbs, top rope it.

[TimL]

Index is a special place that has not gone the way of Exit 38. Minor variations or tr problems should be left as they are. Old bolts should be replaced and brought back to current standards, but if you are going to drill new bolts, then clean up the old rusty bolts. One route that I have a problem with is the bolted route to the left of Princely Ambitions. Dwarf something.... I´ve always thought that it is a squeze job and weaves in and out of the aid line. i talked to one of the guys who put it up while I was in J Tree and he sounded upset when I mentioned that it was a a bit forced. In my opinion, it should be erased. Same with the abandoned project to the right of Jap Gardens. On the other hand, I think a good example of a new, semi bolted route is STP on the UTW just to the right of the top of the third pitch on Davis Holland.

[Off_White]

I'd like to see the conversation address the issue at hand: current bolting practice and future direction at Index, rather than spin off into pointless hysterical handwaving about bolting in America and the inferiority of European morality. Via Ferrata in Italy have absolutely nothing to do with Index.

 

Some people assert that no meaningful debate can occur on serious topics in an online forum, that the medium is inherently flawed and unlike an actual flesh-and-blood conversation, people will not grant any dignity or respect to others involved, the topic at hand, or opinions different than their own. Maybe I'm a fool for giving it a shot.

[lancegranite]

Ethics?...

Photo taken from page 20 of Sky Valley Rock, used without permission from author, sorry DC

Edited July 21, 2005 by lancegranite

[Alpinfox]

 

I'd like to add that I enjoy seeing old bolts on routes. I'm not suggesting that EVERY rusty old 1/4" relic should be left in situ, but I think it's pretty cool to see some of the old hardware that the route pioneers used while I'm safely attached to a fat 3/8" SS truck stop.

[inacan]

Earlier this year I became interested in retro-cleaning and climbing Tadpole. I had heard from a friend who had climbed it about 10 years ago that it was a perfect finger crack in a flare with a tricky crux and that it was on par with Sloe Children for quality as a classic, just harder. He told me that it was pretty dirty then and that he didn't think that it had been climbed much in the past decade!?! This is a four star route that can be accessed by rapping in from BeekBeekBeek or doing a unprotected 5.7 traverse over from Princely. The fact that it never gets climbed speaks volumes about us as climbers.

 

It took the better part of two full trips to Index to clean it. First we removed what was one continuous bush from the top of the climb all the way to the start. The crack was full of dirt and two of the pins were completely rusted out. The next secession required scrubbing the walls free of all the lichen that had grown in over the years to make stemming and smearing possible and enjoyable. Once it was clean we climbed it and I have to say it was worth every knuckle scrape and dirty booger. My hats off and thanks to the original party that cleaned this route it is like so many routes at Index a classic no mater where you are.

 

So why the anchors? In the corse of all the cleaning we realized that there was an easier way to get up to this perfect crack. The line below was, you guessed it, completely over grown. It's not some new variation of Princely. It leaves Princely at the point that Princely takes a left back across the hand traverse and joins what the Cummins guide calls P2 of Frog Pond A3. We cleaned this up, although not as good as I would like to get it but my free time is not endless. Then we placed two bolts to protect the pin flake and freed it. I think it would benefit from another bolt near the top but I'll wait and see. I agree that the anchors at the ledge above Model Worker were poorly replaced and the "new" chains are not very impressive. However my appreciation goes out to whoever put the effort in. My thinking after discussing it with two other long time Index locals(between us over 50yrs of climbing experience and knowledge of the local history and ethics) was that all but one of the bolts from the four could be removed as the new anchors that we placed could serve just as well for Model Worker as for Peace Frog(as we called it) and the belay for Tadpole. The one bolt would allow a climber coming up seldom climbed Model Worker full to clip a directional befor stepping over to the anchors for the next pitch as well as giving another clip in point on the ledge somewhat away from the main anchors thus avoiding over crowding the belay should three people ever be there. As for the top anchors of Tadpole I didn't use them at all since it seemed like the natural thing to do was just climb the extra easy 20' to the belay for BeakBeakBeak and so be set up for one more classic pitch or a fast rap back to the ground via the new anchors below. I wouldn't care if those old anchors stayed or went. Personally I think it make sense to get rid of them but wanted to talk to Terry, Greg, or Darrel first. Also I climb with a 70m rope and would want to be sure that a 60m would work just as well first.

 

That my two cents worth, and some, if you count the time and materials. Soul Reaper I appreciate your desire to start a meaningful discussion here absent of spray. I agree that if one is going to up-grade the belay anchors on a route they should also consider the top anchors as well.

And if one wants to start a thread without spray they should probably not start it with assumptive conclusions and name calling. I don't think that people who know me would consider me lazy. Crag maintenance requires time and energy. And sometime research and discussion and more time.

 

Peace Frog adds about forty feet of fun climbing to the start of Princely and leaves that line at a natural point, in fact while princely wanders all over the place PF continues along at a persistent upward right angle. The first bolt protects some seep stemming and the second protects two successive dynos to a big flake. Form there it follows an easy lay back up to a small roof past a pin and maybe a third bolt(?) I used a not so good 00 TCU. Climb past that to the anchors. The anchors allow you to top rope PF or set you up to belay Tadpole in a position that allows you to see the leader.

 

Peace Frog was an after thought, it's a fun route and a cool way to get to Tadpole but this was and still is for me about climbing Tadpole. Btw, SoulReaper how did you like Tadpole?

[soulreaper]

What I called laziness was in no way a reference to your cleaning efforts, which I think are extremely admirable and should be continued by all of us who want to revive some of the harder, more classic routes at the crag. Point taken, as I attempt to reserve judgement a little more...What I was speaking of was what I perceived as indifference as to the state of existing fixed anchors, while new anchors were placed in a spot that certainly would take natural gear (base of Tadpole corner). My other worry is about the "squeezing in" of more (bolted) lines on the wall, as there are plenty more opportunities for this to happen. We've all seen the grid-bolt mania at exits 32 and 38, but I feel like Index needn't follow suit. I suppose pulling the old Model Worker anchor would be a worthy pursuit/compromise between the new anchor, as it would minimize mank.

 

Do you agree that we should also minimize bolting anchors where natural gear is available, however?

 

As far as Tadpole goes, it awaits a lead attempt by me. It's quite hard at the lower crux, but definitely interesting.

 

I'm excited to put energy into retro-cleaning and re-opening some of the old classics, but I don't also want to see a trend of retro-bolting/10 ft."link-ups" begin/continue at the crag. I'm not accusing you of that, but rather wondering what your standards are as pertains to minimizing unsightly fixed anchors where possible.

 

Also, I'm glad that this thread is finally bearing some fruit, even if it seems rather esoteric in the grand scheme of things.

 

-Andrew

Edited July 21, 2005 by soulreaper

[inacan]

No one wants to see 10' link ups at Index. Nor is this much of a concern. Go climb PF. It is a reasonable .11 with a bouldery bolt protected move but it's not some over bolted sport climb. Move right where Princely goes left. Bring some micro stoppers. Tell me if you still think it's a squeeze job. I hate squeeze jobs and only make it to the Exits about once a year at best.

 

As for anchors near cracks? Nearly all the anchors at Index are near cracks. Lets place solid belay anchors in good spots that promote climbing and minimize placing fixed protection on route near where good solid natural gear can be found.

 

I also aggree about minimizing and or hiding anchors. There are definitely one or two random anchors out there that I am planing on getting out and painting as soon as I get a chance. And how about the pile of tat half way up Narrow Arrow Overhang? Anyone mind if all that goes away?

[DCramer]

Under that pile of tat is a great free route. It was originally lead free with a fp above where the tat is now. This pin has been stolen. Subsequently another person came and added some bolts (where the tat is now) and claimed the FFA to that point. I have often thought of going back and cleaning it up. One of the finest leads on the Lower Wall.

If you clean it up make sure it's set up for free climbing.

 

[edit]If I understand/remember correctly the new variation is not a squeeze job. I thought about doing it before and once hanging out with Jim Yoder he pointed it out without my prompting. A direct start to Tadpole has several advantages 1) it might encourage people to climb it 2) enables people to approach easily without having to rap or do the traverse which has the potential for dropped rocks.

 

[edit 2]Soul Reaper are you an Opeth fan?

Edited July 21, 2005 by Peter_Puget

[pope]

Inacan said:

Then we placed two bolts to protect the pin flake and freed it.

 

That's all I need to know.

[DCramer]

...the abandoned project to the right of Jap Gardens.

 

Is this really abandoned? If so, it seems like these bolts (2?) are far more of an eyesore than an extra anchor added 40m up the wall.

[JensHolsten]

Some good discussion. Just a quick question here. Is putting two bolts next to a former pin flake considered ok at Index? I have not climbed at Index that much and am still trying to get a grip on the local ethics. Everytime I bring a first timer to Index one of their first comments regards the plethora of bolts on the cliff. They always leave having enjoyed the routes (and with their asses kicked), but most of the time mention concern with the amount of bolts on the cliff. I have to admit, there are a lot of bolts (which should be kept to a bare minimum in my opinion). Are there bolts which the Index community obviously deems unworthy of being on the cliff? If so, maybe they should be removed. I would be happy to help (not without the consent of others who know the area better) while I am in town. Also, just wanted to say thanks to Inacan for his awesome cleaning energy. I definetely agree with that ethic!

 

Jens

[RuMR]

Jens...

 

do not start a chopping war! a better idea is to keep new bolting to a minimum...

 

everyone loses when chopping starts...

[Szyjakowski]

not true, the rock wins the chopping war. bolt is removed from its guts.