[TR] Enchantments Climbing- The Temple/ High Priest/ Prusik 6/4/2005

[larrythellama]

here are my thoughts on it. i have personally that overthinking any climb does nothing positive for me. it allows moments of doubt and other counter-productive energy to flow threw my body.

 

so in essence when a new "alpine" leader is climbing a non-sustained route like the west ridge of prussik and he comes to a point where cbs's gospel does not make sense to him at the time(remember he is pushing himself, so his thoughts are not 100%) the person might panic and instead of just doing the move infront of him overthinks it and gets scared and then bails. thus resulting in a wasted effort to climb a nice feature such as the one mentioned above and possibly bailing on gear which is a financial loss.

 

so in retrospect what works for cbs does not work for me, so that now invalidates all my beta? and opinion on the route?

 

fun is the point of climbing not a scientific breakdown of the entire route and moves and gear required. part of climbing is adventure, if you are not ready for that adventure then maybe one should practice more before getting into something that maybe over a persons head, which could lead to tragedy.

 

make sense now? or do we unilaterally support cbs's method of adventureless climbing by spelling out each individual move in the entire climbing universe.

 

by the way i am hardly a good climber, i just like to have fun and adventure and approach each individual moment with an open mind and not one filled with some other persons personal beta.

 

thx

[Szyjakowski]

rightO llama.

practice, practice, practice...I do believe Classic crack (at 8mile) was originally named Practice Crack. So, practice....novices should seriously reconsider heading for the mts until they are confident leading near the car. Otherwise, the SAR might have to be called. Mountain routes certainly should not have so much beta given out. Where is the adventure in that?

Rock Climbing or specifically mt climbing is about adventure....

cheers-

[gyselinck]

fun is the point of climbing not a scientific breakdown of the entire route and moves and gear required. part of climbing is adventure, if you are not ready for that adventure then maybe one should practice more before getting into something that maybe over a persons head, which could lead to tragedy.

 

How are they supposed to be ready for the adventure without going out and getting the experience? Maybe the scientific breakdown is a good way for them to discover if there ready. Not everyone is born a hardman climber. When I was learning to climb I got the all the beta I could, a scientific breakdown as you say. I remember once I really wanted to climb the Improbable Traverse on Guye Peak, but I was so scared at the thought. I researched it online, read multiple books, talked to people who had done it, climbed the descent route, took recon photos, and once watched some climbers for an hour or more on route from the parking lot. (Whoa, I did all that for Mt. Thomson too. )Even then the thought of going up there scared me, made me feel sick. We finally did climb it and it went way smooth, of course I knew every route detail, however. But that’s not the point, the point is, is that it helped me learn the processes of alpine climbing. Now I hardly ever climb with a guide and have little to no prior knowledge of climbs that I do. It’s all part of the learning. I also think that climbing can be pretty emotional, which is why we tend to get so worked up. Kind of funny considering climbing means nothing, its pointless. It’s a waste of resources, time, energy, and maybe even your life. Everyone climbs for different reasons. If someone wants good beta, that’s there call. Why should someone else care? If you don’t want it, don’t read it.

 

I think its pretty cool that catbird spent the time for the write up, rather then just brushing someone off. Cascade Climbers is a place to share information, its good that someone got what they neeeded. Hopefully it will help make there trip go smooth, be a little more enjoyable.

[larrythellama]

exactly, you expressed your opinion and i expressed mine. one view point is never 100% correct, especially with climbing. i just think that it is funny that someone would put so much energy into climbing something at all.

 

same way we all learn, i learned on my own with my friends, we took no classes and only relied on each other. everyone except for me now is an amazing climber. were as cbs appears to have learned from the mounties. we both took different paths and that formulated different belief systems in the nature of the sport.

 

i just find it silly that sooo many people are ready to follow what one person sez, wheter it be the guide book or some random on the internet.

 

to try to think for yourself is what i am trying to say. and enjoy the freedom that climbing brings. i just dont think a micro managed beta spray is either.

 

tho the thing that got me is he is trying to claim that one move is harder then what it is and that is bad beta. i dont think placing a 5.9 rating to it is a good idea. maybe now the person is scared and will not do the route because some person gave bad beta. if he found the move challenging then maybe he coud say that, but to attempt to apply a new rating is dumb.

 

have a nice day

[mattp]

Fair enough, Larry, but consider this:

 

I can see two reasons why someone might want the level of detail that CBS offered: (1) they are going to try a climb that is more technical or in some other fashion more serious than they have done before, or (2) they are going to be guiding or leading a group of climbers on a climb they have not done before.

 

In both cases, you might not need that kind of information but many people believe it is just common sense to get all the information available. My bet is that if you were going to go climb, say, the Pacific Ocean Wall, you'd take along a fully detailed topo (or two) and you'd have a complete gear list and you'd want to know how long the pitches were and how good the anchors are in advance. Also, if you were going to guide a group on something that was perhaps within your level of competence but not something you view as completely trivial, I bet you'd ask your buddies for information along the lines of what CBS provided. Or at least you probably should.

 

Your comments about over-analyzing things, and about how detailed route descriptions can sometimes get in the way are valid. But as your last post hints, there are other ways to look at this, equally valid. (Also, I didn't see him stating that the move was 5.9, but that some have said they thought this. As it is a slab move in the middle of a climb otherwise providing good holds, I can see someone feeling that way about it.)

[Szyjakowski]

i doubt larry would bother with the aid route. not enough patience.

I also think the amount of detail given regarding this particular route is overboard. If you reread Beckey's beta in the cascade bible volume 1, you can find your way up the west ridge.

[slothrop]

You can hardly miss the route. It's well-traveled, so you know you're off-route if you are pulling off handfuls of lichen, and there is quite a bit of fixed gear/tat. Plus, it's a ridge. There is a ton of natural pro. It's a good route for beginning alpine climbers.

 

Newbies, go do it!

[minx]

hey all, i think that this particular example may be a bit extreme as there is plenty of beta out there. BUT everyone has there own comfort level and enjoys climbing in different ways. the tone of the whole thing was such that only one approach seemed correct. llarry will do it as he does and newbie will be comforted by lots of info. there's points on both sides and remember there is more than one way to skin a cat.

[chucK]

Though isn't the Beckey Guide wrong or at least misleading concerning the final topping-out chimney?

 

As I remember, the sketch would send you up that 5.8(?) chimney-ish offwidth thingy on the N side (which is scrubbed by travel) whereas the true (easier) route is an easy chimney around the corner to the right.

[tomtom]

[Szyjakowski]

well resketch it. scan your new topo and email beckey. he likes beta, more beta for beckey!

[jst]

Reading Beta is a bit like watching Oprah. You can follow the advice if you like or change the channel and do what YOU want. Either way you don't have to tell your friends.

[catbirdseat]

Beta is like bolts, you can skip 'em if you find the climbing easy.

[larrythellama]

beta is like bolts, they can both be bad.

[Alpinfox]

Beta is like bolts...

 

And, when in excess, both are unnecessary and detract from the climbing experience.

[minx]

beta is like bolts, they can both be bad.

 

And, when in excess, both are unnecessary and detract from the climbing experience.

 

 

what's life w/o a little excess?

[Maestro]

OK, I’ve stayed out of this fray so far, but at the risk of getting barbecued, I’m going to jump in because this is partly my doing.

 

I am the “novice” that e-mailed cbs asking for personal beta. I had started a public thread about a week earlier that brought a few helpful replies, but I went to cbs off the board because I read his TR and he had just been up there the weekend before, so I thought he might have a good handle on conditions, etc, etc. I am posting this because I feel partly responsible for the flaming he has taken when he was just trying to be helpful.

 

I sincerely appreciate the time he took to write that up for me. It was his decision to go public with it, but that made sense since it was a detailed write-up that others might find useful as well. Having that move on the slab labeled 5.9 surprised me, but didn’t scare me off because that is within my limit and of my companions’ as well.

 

The situation is this: I have been climbing casually for over 30 years, but have only in the past year gotten really into it heavy duty because I finally have someone to live with who does it with me instead of starting a big fight every time I go. I am going up there for the first time with 3 other people who are also going up there for the first time. I personally feel fairly confident about the route, but I wanted beta about the rack because being a typically lazy climber, I don’t want to haul this big rack up there if I will only need a few pieces. Same for crampons, ice ax, etc. I also wanted to know which pitches would be best led by me and which could be done by my wife, who is more of a novice—albeit a very talented one who will very soon pass me in climbing ability. She can already send sport routes that chew me up and spit me out.

 

Many of you no doubt like the adventure of finding your own way. We’ve done our share of that, but more on class 3-4 scrambles. I’m sure we will soon be there on technical alpine routes too, but for now we appreciate the beta.

Edited June 9, 2005 by Maestro

[Alex]

Send it Maestro, don't listen to these chodes.

[catbirdseat]

I finally have someone to live with who does it with me instead of starting a big fight every time I go.

You are so lucky, man. Enjoy it and have fun!

[Toast]

true