gapertimmy Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 curious, i saw some chick at smiffy with a prussik above her atc while on belay. does anyone out there backup their ATC with some other stopping device, i'd be interested in hearing the different methods and the pros/cons associated with each. gapertimmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 That type of backup has generally gone out of style for beginning rappelers, since they don't necessarily know how to unweight the prusik if it accidently sets, and there is the bad instinct to grip the rope if you get out of control on rap, which prevents the prusik from setting. The better alternative I know if is to put a carabiner on the the leg loop, clip a prusik loop in, and wrap the loop a few times around the brake line. Clip the loop back into the carabiner, and you have what's called an autoblock, and you can stop and start at will. Make sure it does not go into the ATC, as that causes a serious problem. You can extend the ATC out with a runner if this is a possible issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 id way rather have the backup above the rap device than below as it is pretty hard to pass the knot with your backup below your rap device. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gapertimmy Posted October 18, 2002 Author Share Posted October 18, 2002 interesting, yes possibly having the backup enter the ATC could be very bad. the reason i ask of course is getting a beginer to learn rapping (as iain gathered) i'd imagine teaching the person the basics of a prussik on ground, practicing how to weight/unweight might help keep the ideas coming. I remember learning to rap was a tad spooky, but i am a BHV, just wondering if there is other ways to make it a bit more unnerving for the n00biez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 I could see that if you were anticipating a knot pass. I was referring to a beginner who would have enough to deal with besides minding that prusik. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 teach them that the best option is always to walk off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 the fireman's belay thing works well too where you just yard on the rope ends if the person starts freaking out. but the you have to be first one down and can't check out their setup and talk them through the hardest part of getting started on the rappel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 have them set up the rap device above yours on the rope before you start rapping so you know its set up properly. if they stay clipped to the anchor while you rap there should not be any uncomfortable forces on them while you rap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 I'd agree with Iain, the autoblock is the way to go. It basicaly acts as your brake hand if you should let go of the rope. Too many wraps and it will be hard to slide it down as you go, not enough and it wont hold. I think I ussualy use three. Dru's right though, if you have to pass a not while on rappel, you want a prussick above the device. In that case I use a gri-gri (since that only ussualy comes up when rapping a single chord). Passing the knot is a wholenother topic though. Setting them up on the rope first and using a firemans belay are also good options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COL._Von_Spanker Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 I use the prussik deal sometimes, it can be reather handy, just cause you can take both hands off. This is a hard one cause you can put the person on rappel and have them wait while you rappel, to alleviate the force on them you could add an extra locker and clove into it, and when yer down have the next person undo the clove and take the locker and then you can "yard on the rope" as was mentioned earlier. I'm not sure this is the best way but it seems like it would work. The other option is to simply lower the learner from the rap station and then rap second. Then take the time to teach before the situation arises. It's alway unnerving to be below someone who is inexperienced at rappin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 Fowler recomends extending their rap device on a sling if setting them up before you rap. It keeps them from getting pulled by your weight, and works the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by gapertimmy: curious, i saw some chick at smiffy with a prussik above her atc while on belay. does anyone out there backup their ATC with some other stopping device, i'd be interested in hearing the different methods and the pros/cons associated with each. gapertimmy For free-hanging dulfersitz raps, I'll occasionally wear my lederhosen and an extra sweater, ja. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gapertimmy Posted October 19, 2002 Author Share Posted October 19, 2002 dulfersitz this 8======D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by gapertimmy: dulfersitz this 8======D Check your PMS....or at least your pm's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don_Gonthier Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 Another method I've used a bunch of times is to have the beginner rap on a single line while you belay with the other. So long as the raps aren't stretching half a rope length you can do it with one rope. I find it doesn't take any longer to set up and gives a bit of peace of mind. I also like this method when the raps are funky, like when you have to pendulum to get to an anchor. The guy on rappel only has to fish one rope out of cracks and if he needs to free climb he's already on belay. The second guy just raps normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinker Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 I agree with Lambone and his reference. That's the cleanest way I've seen this done. I've seen guides stack 3 or 4 clients at the top of a climb this way, do the rap first, and 'belay' from below (using the fireman's/boyscout belay method). The clients don't have to mess with a single thing after the guide checks them out and departs the ledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbeam Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 Check out "Abseiling in Safety" http://www.planetmountain.com/English/Lab/techniques/abseiling/index.html I've used it in a few tenuous situations and it works well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 you could also learn some tricks of the trade watching A-team reruns. added bonus are oxy-acetylene welding in 30 seconds and helicopter pilot's license in 1 minute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salbrecher Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 I put the rope through my ATC and a locking biner, clip it to my harness and then...rapell. I find this method works pretty well, however, sometimes the harness chafes and or itches me. [ 10-19-2002, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: salbrecher ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolyn Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 I was initially taught to use a prussik above the belay device. It definately eased my mind as a beginner. Now Im starting to use the autoblock. At first that didnt feel as secure, but now Im more comfortable with it. It also feels a lot smoother than the prussik. Not that the prussik is really hard to make, but I seem to find an autoblock more efficient and easier to get 'right'. There were a few times with the prussik that it loosened up on me and just became more of a nuisance (maybe it wasnt right and I didnt check it before going down). Its kind of a given, but as a beginner with so many things going on in my head it seemed like the last thing I would do was weight and test the knot....big mistake! If there is someone below I always have them do a fireman's belay. I figure whats it gonna hurt? Walking off is often just as easy (around here anyway) and probly safer. So unless I have to rapp, I dont. The hardest part I have with rappelling is the start. You know, the foot or more before you are completely over the edge with the rope tight? As a beginner, Thats where a loss of control seems to be the most likely. [ 10-19-2002, 07:00 AM: Message edited by: carolyn ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrible_ted Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by carolyn: If there is someone below I always have them do a fireman's belay. I figure whats it gonna hurt? Beginning rappeller + loose rock = hurt belayer Personally, I don't stand under rappellers. If I'm worried about my partners rappelling skills, I have them set up an Autoblock. But, I don't wait until I'm up a route to teach my partners to rappel, especially when there's just two of us. -t Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 an option not mentioned for dealing with an inexperienced companion is to hang both of you off one rap device rescue style. I think the Fasulo self-rescue book illustrates. If getting established on the rappel (eg. low anchors off a ledge) I will often tie a big knot on a bight about 10 feet below the anchor to catch me if I lose control while getting down onto the rope. Once I get the system weighted I undo it. Also sometimes hitch together slings to make an etrier to downclimb below the anchor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolyn Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 Ted, I get your point. I guess I was more or less implying that Im not going to be a hero. If a firemans belay is available to me, why not take it. As someone who has been injured by falling objects, Im super careful and aware of knocking shit down. And overly paranoid when below someone. Good to hear you set people up with some sort of back up...Ive seen too many people teach others to rapp and just let 'em go. Fern- Thanks for the ideas! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coondog Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 For those of you who don't prusik backup while rappeling, including myself: 2 weeks ago a climber at the Cookie Cliffs in Yosemite died on rappel after being struck by a small rock, which rescuers apparently believe knocked him unconscious and unable to attend to his belay, and he fell to his death... Also, I noticed that many Europeans and guides rappel from a sling girth-hitched to their harness, thus keeping the device & rope well away from clothing & gear while descending... Believe I may be doing both in the future. --cd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellemontagne Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 I think Iain and Don have it right. The autoblock is the way to go - I use it every time I rappel. Setting up a prussik above the rappel device would not be wise for the beginner since it would be very difficult for the beginner to loosen the loaded prussik. Additionally, Don's recommendation of belaying the begining rappeller with the other half of the rope or a second rope is very effective. While on the ground, setup a simulated rappel and have the person run through the setup process until they are VERY comfortable with performing each step. Sometimes people just take them directly up to the cliff instead of spending some time on the ground providing instruction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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