b-rock Posted October 10, 2002 Posted October 10, 2002 Wondering anyone's thoughts on descending 3rd and 4th class quickly and safely. Last weekend I was decending the N. Ridge of Mt. Washington, kind of ledgy for a couple of rope lengths off the summit. Because of a large party ascending below us (Mazamas, group of 9 ) and the copious loose rock, we opted to down climb instead of rap. The route is not directly exposed and the steep sections were short (less than 3 meters), so we felt comfortable without a rope. Of course, I pull a monster hold (really, I was being careful, but pulled it nevertheless, I'm an ass). Fell on my butt, flipped over a ledge and stopped myself ok, minor cuts and sprains aside. Of course, the consequences of not stopping there would have been a bit ugly. Belaying seems too time consuming and overkill. Simul(down)climb on a short rope, with the occassional hip belay? The forces involved or the rope in a fall on this terrain would be pretty minor? Thanks. Quote
Lambone Posted October 10, 2002 Posted October 10, 2002 Slow down and be more carefull of what you grab on to and step on... glad your ok Quote
Greg_W Posted October 10, 2002 Posted October 10, 2002 I err on the side of safe, as opposed to quick, but try and move efficiently. I seem to check holds a bit more when downclimbing as opposed to going up. Quote
b-rock Posted October 10, 2002 Author Posted October 10, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Lambone: Slow down and be more carefull of what you grab on to and step on... glad your ok Yeah, that's the obvious, I was doing that. The rock wasn't loose when I knocked it, one of those larger blobs of rock embedded in tuft. Clearly the biggest lesson learned here is to be more careful and thoughtful, I am the one who pulled it (not the thousands before me). Still, seemingly solid holds can pop, and I'm interested in how to minimize the consequences... Quote
iain Posted October 10, 2002 Posted October 10, 2002 shit happens. I would never rap that route, there are risks in rapping too and it takes too long. there are no tricks but to be aware and not cocky. Someone I know almost died heading down the easy Fisher Chimneys on Shuksan in a "4th class" area, one more roll and he was a goner after running up the N. Face. Refuses to climb again to this day. Quote
klenke Posted October 10, 2002 Posted October 10, 2002 In looking strictly at those who died from falling, I bet more people die every year climbing unroped on terrain that looked manageable than those who are roped to an anchor, pro, etc. 4th class terrain would be a big culprit for a lot of these. Climber lets guard down for a second, slips, dies. Moderate slabs would also be high on the death list. Quote
Lambone Posted October 10, 2002 Posted October 10, 2002 quote: Originally posted by b-rock: quote:Originally posted by Lambone: Slow down and be more carefull of what you grab on to and step on... glad your ok Yeah, that's the obvious, I was doing that. The rock wasn't loose when I knocked it, one of those larger blobs of rock embedded in tuft. Clearly the biggest lesson learned here is to be more careful and thoughtful, I am the one who pulled it (not the thousands before me). Still, seemingly solid holds can pop, and I'm interested in how to minimize the consequences... I see b-rock, but I ask, what if you had been roped up? Would you have fallen less far? Or would your fall possibly cause your partner to fall as well? Yes, in some circumstances it may be wise to short-rope and use quick hip belays. The choice to do so depends on your comfort range, route conditions, lack of light, etc...Also, if rappeling is an option, maybe this is the smart choice. But I'd argue that on most 3-4th class terrian maybe more dangerous because pulling the rope on such terrain may result in stuck ropes, or rockfall(as you mentioned before). And short roping on uncomfortable terrain only endangers both members of the party, unless protection and belays are used. So I'll reiterate, on 3-4th class terrain I typicaly remain un-roped, slow down and chose my route carefully. Stay close together, or way untill people below are out of harms way before going down. Expect that you will accidently dislodge loose rocks, and anticipate the consequences. I would say that ussualy this is the faster option, and is not nescesarily more dangerous, however...like allways it just depends on several factors. Your topic is a good one, and the question is important, and possibly may adress one of the biggest "grey areas" in climbing. Descending this type of terrain, especially at the end of a long day in the mountians may be the most dangerouse aspect of climbing, and therefore scares me the most. Just ask my partner from the East Ridge on Forrbiden. On the descent of the NE Face I was quite nervous and uncomfortable, perhaps as scared as I have ever been high in the mountains. In that case we chose to use the rope, and put in what protection we could find. I felt much better with the rope on, my nerves were calm and I had better focus. Yet in the back of my mind, with 50-100ft pendulum runouts, I knew I was not really any safer, it just meant my body wouldn't end up 1000ft down on the glacier. Again, I am really glad your fall didn't result in injury. [ 10-10-2002, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: Lambone ] Quote
b-rock Posted October 11, 2002 Author Posted October 11, 2002 Thanks for your thoughts. Roped the fall I took would have been the same, just feeling lucky to have stopped myself where I did. Quote
tread_tramp Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 Last time I did that route we had a 30m alpine rope and did one short rap. It didn't take that long and the rockfall wasn't a problem. If you felt uneasy I think it is worth the time. Quote
freeclimb9 Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 quote: Originally posted by b-rock: Wondering anyone's thoughts on descending 3rd and 4th class quickly and safely. MTB, or parasail. Snowboard if snow-covered. Shred, dood. Quote
Figger_Eight Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 The tough part about descending 3rd or 4th class for me is that I'm usually whipped and need to keep reminding myself to slow down and pay attention to what I'm doing. I like to "test" dubious looking rocks by pulling on them or pounding on them to see whether they're attached to rock or just stuck to moss. When you get lazy and careless is when bad stuff happens. Quote
forrest_m Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 a few thoughts: it depends a lot on the proportion of loose to solid material, but at the easier end of the spectrum, there’s a lot to be said for dynamic stability. I see a lot of people get into trouble on 3rd class by trying to make every step totally solid. Instead, if you just assume that almost everything is loose, you can move more safely by moving quickly. You can safely use loose footholds if you are dancing across them – by the time they collapse you have already moved on. A lot of times in 3rd class gullies, I think the best way is often to dart quickly from side to side, from stable island to stable island, and damn the torpedoes in between. your mental state is more like skiing than climbing. When it gets steeper, I’m a big fan of descending facing out as long as possible, you make better time and are more secure in many cases scooting down on your butt, even on a lot of 4th class, because you can see where you are going. You are safer from pulling off loose holds because you are palming down in most cases, not pulling outwards as you would be if you were facing in. I think the key to descending this kind of terrain safely is to be in good enough shape that you are still mentally and physically agile on the descent. You get into trouble when you get to the top and think “great, I’m done now.” [ 10-11-2002, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: forrest_m ] Quote
bobinc Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 Very true about being "in shape," both mentally and physically. Another thing to remember is that sometimes, an occasional rappel can really help on the steeper 4th class. Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Lambone: surfin' talus, woohoo! Werd up! Quote
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