mixed climbers and dull points?

[Jens]

This year I'm doing more mixed climbing then ever and really enjoying it, but it is destroying the sharpness of my crampons and picks. I've spent a lot of time out in the garage sharpening lately. Are these other guys I'm seeing at the crags in fruit boots and the like going through picks and frontpoints at a stupendous rate or are they content to climb with blunter stuff then we've always liked as ice climbers? Or are they all getting 15 picks a season from their sponsors? Should I just plan on dropping a lot of cash on replacements as I spend more and more of my time on modern mixed climbs? And no it isn't my technique. Anybody have any insights for me? thanx.

[Ade]

Cost of doing business.

[nalo]

get faster at sharpening.

[Dru]

None of the Scottish climbers I've known have ever sharpened tools. "It just makes them wear out faster." You need sharp picks to climb ice but does it really make a difference for mixed climbing? Maybe for the first swing.

[Don_Serl]

None of the Scottish climbers I've known have ever sharpened tools. "It just makes them wear out faster."

 

When Fishstick and I were in Scotland in 2001 for the Intl Meet at Glenmore Lodge, this exact topic was subject of hot debate amongst the leading Scottish and European mixed activists. Some of the 'hard' Scots didn't bother filing much, and judging from the little experience I got there, most of the climbing didn't seem to require very sharp tools - anything will stick in frozen turf.

 

However, some of 'the best' do sharpen. My mate Simon Richardson had gone thru something like 30 picks in a single season (yes, he has a well-paid job!), and there were Euros who argued vehemently that razor-sharp picks were more necessary the harder the climbing got, even when drytooling. After all, true mixed climbing implies some degree of ice, as well as drytooling, and the ice is likely to be thin and/or brittle, where sharpness is a big advantage. A sharp pick will also hook small edges more aggressively.

 

I wanna hear from some of the better Rockies mixed climbers - I suspect "sharp is good" is the mantra out there too. Certainly sounds that way from Gadd's book...

 

You need sharp picks to climb ice but does it really make a difference for mixed climbing? Maybe for the first swing.

 

True, the edge gets banged up almost instantly on thin ice and/or drytooling, but the "sharp is better" advocates were so hard-core about it that they advocated (and apparently practised) filing at every belay, and even mid-pitch (when possible). They'd carry a small file down their gaiter.

 

My final observation was that tools seemed to matter a lot, and much less attention was paid to crampon sharpness. Personally, I found that surprising, cuz while I don't work much at keeping my crampons sharp most of the time, that's cuz the ice out here on the Cost is usually quite young, warm, and soft. When it gets cold and hard, I don't think there's any other single thing that you can do to ease the climbing than keeping your crampons really sharp. Getting the weight onto your feet, quickly, easily, and securely, is massively important.

 

What have others' experiences been?

 

Cheers,

[Dru]

OK, vertical monopoints vs. horizontal Sabertooth flatpoints for mixed. Discuss.

[Jens]

Awesome post Don.

__

I've also noticed that limestone is mellow on my stuff compared to some of the metamorphiszed volcanic sh*t here in the central cascades. sheez-- one day at the rap wall will harsh on gear (lots of sloppers where you need sharp stuff to bite). I wonder how many picks went into that M10 "Ghost Dog"?

___

BD & Grivel crampon and pick steel seems softer and smears better then CM, but the BD & Grivel wears out faster. I guess none of the sponsored climbers want the once coveted BD aremet picks anymore because the steel doestn't have the "grabbiness" for mixed.

[Janez_Ales]

Sharp is good (picks and points:) but a bit expensive

[Janez_Ales]

That said, I have never broke a pick , yet! Elders have told me so

[John Frieh]

I have one set of picks I've spray painted yellow dedicated to just drytooling. I keep a new set just for alpine or redpoint attempts… Additionally WRT training/drytooling IMO 4 mm picks tend to last about the same as 3 mm picks however I have bent 3 mm picks so I drytool exclusively on 4 mm picks.

 

Jens: I would be curious what type of filing you are having to do to your picks... the cutting edge or the teeth or both? Generally the underside of my teeth (especially the first two) need much more attention than the cutting edge itself... could it be the cause of your problem is that you are striking rock underneath thin ice and not the physical act of hooking/torqing? Just a guess...

 

WRT crampons I climb on darts and can buy just the front piece from petzl so I can avoid having to buy a brand new crampon over and over. I think other vendors offer this options (or at least hope so).

 

I think Ade said it best: cost of doing business… just like rock shoes… the more you climb the more often you need a resole.

[rhyang]

Nolse, how did you buy the dart fronts ? When I called up Petzl USA the guy on the other end rather snottily informed me that I should talk to my local REI or sporting goods store first. I was amazed - big contrast from the excellent customer service I've come to expect from Black Diamond (too bad bionics are way heavy).

[Don_Serl]

I have one set of picks I've spray painted yellow dedicated to just drytooling. I keep a new set just for alpine or redpoint attempts…

 

excellent idea, and one i've adopted too. relating back to some discussion a few weeks ago, torquing the pick hard (as you do drytooling) can lead to later failure, so it's best to reserve a set of picks solely for that activity. especially if you solo easy ice and/or run it out on easy sections...

 

i too bought 4mm picks (quattros, for my quarks), which seem to be fine for DTing. harder to place and sticky in ice tho...

 

Jens: I would be curious what type of filing you are having to do to your picks... the cutting edge or the teeth or both? Generally the underside of my teeth (especially the first two) need much more attention than the cutting edge itself...

 

again, fully agreed. my limited experience seems to show me that sharpness on the bottom edges of the pick to 'hook' the rock is more important than point sharpness. or, more correctly, dullness on the bottom edge is more noticable as a limitation than dullness of the tip.

 

cheers,

[John Frieh]

Petzl isn't staffed/doesn't have the capability to take individual orders from either their site or over the phone... this is actually fairly common with many climbing companies (metolius, etc). As far as his response that's too bad but I would venture a guess based on my experiences with outdoor retail that he has been fielding calls the past month from last minute Xmas shoppers wanting him to explain why he couldn't overnight some 10 dollar item. I would encourage you to use a little empathy with him... everyone has bad days.... water under the bridge…

 

I would send them a polite email and ask which dealer in there area they recommend to special order through. Don’t go to REI as all special orders are placed through customer service which is staffed by people who have no clue want you want and will end up mucking it up. I get mine through Gavin at US outdoor in PDX because he advertises on this site and he actually climbs and knows what you want when you tell him you need a replacement crampon bar or dart front points. I know one of Petzl’s largest online dealers is Karst sports… they generally get Petzl stuff in stock a week ahead of everyone else and have so much in stock you are less likely to have to wait for a special order to be processed. Does that help?

[John Frieh]

Jens: I would be curious what type of filing you are having to do to your picks... the cutting edge or the teeth or both? Generally the underside of my teeth (especially the first two) need much more attention than the cutting edge itself...

 

again, fully agreed. my limited experience seems to show me that sharpness on the bottom edges of the pick to 'hook' the rock is more important than point sharpness. or, more correctly, dullness on the bottom edge is more noticable as a limitation than dullness of the tip.

 

cheers,

 

And the quad (for the quark/quark ergos... I think the quatros are for aztars only) sports a longer front tooth that hooks much much better... not as prone to pop when you switch from the lower to the upper grip.

Edited December 20, 2004 by NOLSe

[rhyang]

Thanks for the info !

[daler]

I'll post this here because of the nature of the thread!!!

 

For Sale

 

2 pairs of Charlet Grade 8 mono crampons. Well used but still great for the scrappy mixed world. Plus 6 spare used front points, wrenches bolts etc... With a little love these will crank many a mixed pitch.

 

60 bucks includes shipping.

 

dremsberg@hotmail.com if interested

 

cheers,

 

dale

[Don_Serl]

For Sale

 

2 pairs of Charlet Grade 8 mono crampons. Well used but still great for the scrappy mixed world. Plus 6 spare used front points, wrenches bolts etc... With a little love these will crank many a mixed pitch.

 

whaacha switchin to, dale?

[Don_Serl]

My mate Simon Richardson had gone thru something like 30 picks in a single season (yes, he has a well-paid job!)

 

sorry, i lied!

(probably the first time that's ever happened on this site too! darn!)

 

i e-mailed Simon. it was 30 picks on a specific set of tools. he actually goes thru about 4 picks per season (80 over 20 years). he's recently been influenced towards keeping them sharper too, so he expects this to rise.

 

cheers,

[daler]

Don,

 

I actually have not used these for quite awhile. On pure ice i'm always on sabertooths, Way more stable. On mixed stuff I have a couple different pairs of fruit boots. A trango plus with BD,s Raptors bolted on in my favorite for moderate stuff and then I have a pair of Mega Ices for the steeper lines.

 

cheers,

 

dale

[carolyn]

I think its a good idea to have picks specifically for drytooling and ice. Yes, its a pain to switch em out. More of a pain to buy more sooner than necessary.

 

When doing mixed, figure out what the route mostly consists of - rock or ice. your decision should be pretty clear as to which picks you will want if you review the route.

 

Ive found it important to have picks as sharp as possible for drytooling around here. Lots of filing. I share tools with someone and the picks are about an inch shorter this year than last. We just got a new set! WOOHOO!

 

Dru-

I like drytoolin/mixed in both my sabretooths and rambos. Ive opted to not use my sabretooths anymore because I dont want to have to replace an entire crampon after a day of drytooling. I can change the points out in the rambos, so I have one set aside for DT and one for ice.

 

Im ready for some spurs now!

[Janez_Ales]

Mount monos on your Rambos and then take the spare pair and bolt it at the back so that it sticks out on top of the frame, but under the bail, pointing up of course...

and yes, tighten your shoe laces