Dreamer-Green Giant Buttress

[JayB]

Great summary of the route. Thanks for adding it to the site.

[ScottP]

Does anybody have an idea how many bolts have been added to this route since it was first put up. I ask because when I climbed it last (about 10 years ago) there were way less bolts than Tom mentions in this post. Seems that the character of the climb is quite different now.

Example: Pitch 5 with the slick groove. There were no bolts until you were way out which made the groove the "obvious" way to go.

 

Another example was the last two pitches (above the pitch above the blue crack); these were pretty much solo pitches due to the extreme lack of placements (I remember no bolts.)

 

I'm not complaining, just curious.

 

[ 09-26-2002, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: ScottP ]

[erik]

scott

 

pitch 5 is the same...

 

according to mattp most of the bolts were replaced and i do not think it has had that many added...

 

also the last two pitches are new...the old goes up and right of that corner...the new ones go up and left....

[chucK]

Just look at Mattp's topo. He's usually quite accurate at getting the correct bolt count.

 

According to Matt the route Dreamer goes right up that groove. The line of bolts just left of the groove is "Safe Sex".

 

[ 09-26-2002, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: chucK ]

[fern]

I think that the bolt count on Mattp's topo is not correct for the second to last pitch.

[ScottP]

quote:

---

Originally posted by erik:

scott

 

pitch 5 is the same...

 

according to mattp most of the bolts were replaced and i do not think it has had that many added...

 

also the last two pitches are new...the old goes up and right of that corner...the new ones go up and left....

---

Okay, I went up and right on the last two (there was a corner to my left.)

So, no bolts were added to pitch 5? If that is the case, I'd take stemming the groove over the slab to the left anyday. (I spent a shitload of time digging the grass out of the bottom of that thing trying in vain to find something to hang an RP in.)

[Walter_Burt]

I think MattP put up the last pitch that goes left. I agree it is a very nice pitch - much nicer than the dirty corner to the right on the old route

[erik]

scott

 

i led that groove pitch was fine with the runout to the first bolt.......

 

seemed tame!?

 

subjective i know i know....

 

but why waste the time to dig fer gear....waste of energy.....just crank it!

[chucK]

Scott,

In reference to the picture you linked to, there is now at least one, I think two, bolts between the photographer and the bolt you have just clipped.

[erik]

quote:

---

Originally posted by chucK:

Scott,

In reference to the picture you linked to, there is now at least one, I think two, bolts between the photographer and the bolt you have just clipped.

---

really chuck???

 

i dont rememeber clipping one until i started to traverse....who knows i routinly miss obvious bolts...

 

who knows???

[Cpt.Caveman]

I drilled in some new bolts for the mounties

[chucK]

quote:

---

Originally posted by erik:

quote:

---

Originally posted by chucK:

Scott,

In reference to the picture you linked to, there is now at least one, I think two, bolts between the photographer and the bolt you have just clipped.

---

really chuck???

 

i dont rememeber clipping one until i started to traverse....who knows i routinly miss obvious bolts...

---

It would make sense you woulda missed 'em, 'cause there's no bolts in the groove. They're all to the left of it. Like Tom's "Great summary of the route" says, "Climb left or directly to the first bolt. Do not get sucked into the groove proper".

 

Of course, if you go left, to the bolt (first one's probably less than 15' from the belay bolts) you will be officially on Safe Sex, not on Dreamer, 'cause Dreamer goes up the groove without the bolts. Am I making any sense?

[ScottP]

quote:

---

Originally posted by erik:

scott

 

[QB]i led that groove pitch was fine with the runout to the first bolt.......

---

It's a pretty fun pitch.

 

quote:

---

seemed tame!?

subjective i know i know....

---

Yeah, it is.

 

quote:

---

but why waste the time to dig fer gear....waste of energy.....just crank it!

---

By my and my partners reckoning, if I had come off while in that groove, I would likely have hit my partner. It wasn't stressful, just seemingly necessary. But I appreciate the thought.

[ScottP]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman:

I drilled in some new bolts for the mounties

---

That was very kind of you.

[ScottP]

quote:

---

Originally posted by chucK:

(snip description) Am I making any sense?

---

Perfectly. There was no mattp'safesexroute when I was last up there. (Sounds like maybe Erik too.)

We rapped the gully to get down and whacked down to one of the creeks we had passed cause there was no real rap route down the front side.

 

(This thread is starting to sound like a Columbo episode.)

[j_b]

quote:

---

also the last two pitches are new...the old goes up and right of that corner...the new ones go up and left....

---

the old line scrambled right of the dirty corner then traversed left to the base of the penultimate pitch (knobby face). The only new climbing of this section is what is level with the corner and left of it. There were no bolts above the top belay of the last 5.9 pitch but I remember girth hitching knobs. Actually for years there was a broken drill bit in a pothole there which may explain the runout above.

[David_Parker]

I was also just on dreamer this week, but being we didn't get to the base and start roped climbing until noon, only made it to the top of the Blue Crack pitch via Urban Bypass. We also started too far left of direct start, but found our way with natural pro to the belay behind the bush which I think is pitch #1 belay for "direct" dreamer. The last time I was on this climb was 1986 and I distinctly remember the last 2-3 pitches as extremely runout with no bolts and I also girth-hitched chicken heads when possible. The beauty of the "character" of the climb back then was that by the time you get to those final pitches, you are pretty used to the slab-friction climbing on smaller stuff, so the bigger knobs higher up inspire confidence to see you through the long runouts. This to me was what made these pitches some of the funnest also. I remember feeling totally stoked that I had lead these major run-out pitches. So I think if there are a bunch of bolts up there, in a way it's too bad because the character IS different. Not that I wouldn't clip them, but I'm a weenie anyway.

 

Tom, maybe we should post fresh rap beta too...I think many "up" pitches can be combined on the way down and there sure is a sea of anchors hap hazard all over the place to be used, due to all the different routes.

 

Also, I was thinking all the belay stations on Dreamer (and Safe Sex) should be changed to chains. Since I didn't finish it 2 days ago, I'd go back with chain and links. I hate that rat nest shit of webbing!

 

Also, the approach is a total piece of cake compared to 1986! No trail whatsoever back then!

 

[ 09-26-2002, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: David Parker ]

[fern]

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Parker:

Tom, maybe we should post fresh rap beta too...I think many "up" pitches can be combined on the way down and there sure is a sea of anchors hap hazard all over the place to be used, due to all the different routes.

 

Also, I was thinking all the belay stations on Dreamer (and Safe Sex) should be changed to chains. Since I didn't finish it 2 days ago, I'd go back with chain and links. I hate that rat nest shit of webbing!

---

In my opinion the rappel situation on that whole wall is a disaster. If it was my place to do so I would install a direct rap route with chains or rap hangers right down the fall line from the top of the wall and cut all the webbing out.

[JayB]

Well - there's still the unbolted final pitch for all of the runout junkies out there!

 

It seems when it comes to the runouts on slabs there's a fine line between crafting a classic route with run-outs that keep a leader who's up to the grade fully engaged during the climb (Online comes to mind), and a gut-wrenching death route that no one ever climbs. I'm not against such routes in principle, especially when they were put up on lead and the FA naturally had to leave the crux(es) unprotected, but doubt I'll have the heuvos to climb many of them intentionally.

 

Anyhow - IMO the Dreamer/Safe-Sex combo falls squarely into the "classic" camp. Even on the last couple of bolted lines the bolts near the end of the pitches were spaced widely enough to provoke plenty of thought in this guy's head. (I think I may have inadvertently skipped the last bolt on the next-to-last pitch though). I did have some serious leader's fatigue going on by that point so your opinion may vary...

 

Kudos to mattp and co for putting up a sweet line.

 

[ 09-26-2002, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

[David_Parker]

A direct and seperate rap route makes total sense. Although we had the whole wall to ourselves, I'd imagine it would be a cluster fuck rapping down onto others still going up and trying to share the anchors. Not to mention creating a route off the "up" line makes it safer and could avoid rope eating flakes.

 

Also, Tom's pitch numbers above do not co-incide with Matt P's topo after pitch #1. Belay for pitch "2" is same for regular and direct on Matts topo. The blue crack pitch is only pitch #6 on the Matt P. topo. FYI

 

[ 09-26-2002, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: David Parker ]

[chucK]

quote:

---

Originally posted by tomrogers:

Pitch 11: to top, straight forward. We didn't do.

---

Tom,

Too bad you didn't get to that last pitch. It's incredible! The mark of a fine classic is how it just keeps getting better. You must get back there, if only to tick the summit pitch.

[E-rock]

Omigod I wanna go. It sounds like the Thumb in Little Cottonwood canyon, only more sustained and twice as long (with a rap descent instead of a dangerous bushwack). Unfortunately responsibility calls this weekend.

[DavidW]

interesting to read all the banter about Dreamer.... the way its climbed today has little to do with the original route put up by Duane Constantino and Chris Greyell. The original line above the second 5.9 pitch still continues straight up the knobby wall with maybe one stopper placement in the middle of the pitch. The bolted line to the left was installed a year or two ago and is a great pitch but it isnt the Dreamer. The final two pitches above that are not the original route either tho its doubtful if the original finish has seen much or any traffic since its first ascent.

 

A new second pitch above the "direct" start was added at the time Urban Bypass was put up and is not shown on the Perkins topo's. It climbs directly up from the top of the low-angled dihedral past several bolts...... some very runout 5.8 and gear placements to share the chain anchor at the top of the second Dreamer pitch. The new guidebook will take the direct start, the second pitch just described, the two Urban Bypass pitches and the new bolted pitch above the 5.9 pitches and lump all of that together as Urban Bypass.

 

I'd like to ask that people do not replace any belay stations with bolt hangers and quick links. Currently Darrington regulars, (myself included) are of the opinion that the Fixe belay/rappel stations with powder coated hangers and chain linking the two with a big rap ring are a superior way to go.

 

Establishing climbing and rap routes on these larger features is pretty complicated at best. We've made it a practice to use either rawl 5-piece bolts which can be removed or to overdrill the holes so that the bolts can be pounded beneath the surface level. This way if mistakes are made or better ideas come to light then the place doesnt become a junkyard of misguided "litter bolts".

 

While not all of my friends support me on this next issue I personally detest shiny bolts visably gleaming in the sun and install only powder-coated grey or black hangers.

 

Darrington currently enjoys a very friendly relationship with the rangers and land-use managers feel a written climbing policy is not needed. In this delicate time of wilderness policies and possible fixed anchor bans it seems that a low-profile with regard to bolting is very important. Please exercise utmost discretion and only install hardware that is not visably apparent. A couple of written complaints could potentially jeapordize the whole place.

 

It's great to see people enjoying what has been my own favorite climbing area for over 25 years...... thanks for all your consideration in these matters.

[fern]

it's all good to disguise the hangers, but when they get nested up with 8 neon webbing slings the effort seems moot, no?

[DavidW]

So far i havent seen anyone tie additional webbing on any of the Fixe chain/rap ring systems in place in Darrington although they do do this on systems that have two separate bolts and quick links. If I misunderstood and you are talking about "poot" slings where someone chickened out then these can be easily removed although I personally feel the price of failure is that I choose the oldest biner I have, (or one of my partners!) and lower off from that. Three O'Clock Rock for instance, used to be Christmas Tree of bright, rotting slings on dozens of routes. After 5 or 6 years and hundreds and hundreds of dollars of investment this is largely a thing of the past. Profound thanks to all of you who put $$ in the re-hab jar at Pro Mtn Sports!