The Other Side

[bDubyaH]

i've mentioned before (somewhere) the problem with politcs/beliefs is that many people can not have a huge debate (say on the house floor) and then go for a pint afterward. we get so polarized that we have to hate the person, not just what they represent. i can completely disagree with someone, but have no beef with the person. wish people just didn't take everything so damn personally, and that people didn't have to send out personal attacks

[sexual_chocolate]

I tend to agree with kaskade that the visceral dismissal of "born-again christians" is counter-productive if our aim is to generate any kind of mutual understanding and empathy for differing view-points.

[bDubyaH]

Keep it up, and see if your "side" convinces enough people to switch back to the Dems. You might be in for a long time in the wilderness...

 

i don't have a side. i think sides are a major part of the problems in this country. we have to pick our candidate based on party lines, hell i disagree/agree with the dems and reps on any number of topics. stating that i think having a born again christian as a president is a bit on the fringe is not slander to my mind, just what i think. hell there was a huge uproar becuase JFK was a catholic, and that was a hell of a lot more mainstream than born again

[bDubyaH]

I tend to agree with kaskade that the visceral dismissal of "born-again christians" is counter-productive if our aim is to generate any kind of mutual understanding and empathy for differing view-points.

 

my problem with the whole born-again thing is that our president has used it as part of his platform. he believes in a number of the tenants of this religion and is trying to incorporate them into the fabric of our country. i strongly believe in a HUGE seperation in church and state and i feel that many of the people who voted for the shrub, did not do so based on his religious beliefs. and it concerns me greatly that his beliefs could be used to tell me what i can do in my life.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

i don't have a side. i think sides are a major part of the problems in this country. we have to pick our candidate based on party lines, hell i disagree/agree with the dems and reps on any number of topics.

 

Great! As do I. But we only have two choices. As people attack the 51% who voted for Bush, you might consider that many made tough, thoughtful choices, weighing the options.

 

stating that i think having a born again christian as a president is a bit on the fringe is not slander to my mind, just what i think. hell there was a huge uproar becuase JFK was a catholic, and that was a hell of a lot more mainstream than born again

 

I think you'd faint if you knew the deep religious conviction of previous presidents. Try reading Lincoln's second inaugural speech for just one small example. You will think you were in a church.

 

As for "born again" Christian presidents - are you merely refering to people who converted/changed their lives midstream? Bush is actually the third Methodist to win the office, if I recall correctly. If you are talking about evangelical denominations, what about Carter?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

and it concerns me greatly that his beliefs could be used to tell me what i can do in my life.

 

How exactly has your life and freedoms been adversely affected since Jan 2001 as a direct result of Bush's religious convictions?

[b-rock]

and it concerns me greatly that his beliefs could be used to tell me what i can do in my life.

 

How exactly has your life and freedoms been adversely affected since Jan 2001 as a direct result of Bush's religious convictions?

 

Wait a few years then look at the Supreme Court.... Roe v Wade being overturned would be exactly that...

 

Or Ashcroft's insistance that I cannot decide to end my own life? Stem Cell research? My family has a long history of Parkinsons (a truely horrible disease)...

[bDubyaH]

kask, i honestly could care less about the presidents religious beliefs. i do care about him inflicting his beliefs on me. with the superior court apointments bound to come up soon, it makes me nervous. plus the way he is so damn righteous about what he is doing in the middle east. his views on where religion and politics should mix are too extremist for my taste.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Wait a few years then look at the Supreme Court.... Roe v Wade being overturned would be exactly that...

 

That was not my question. My question is not in hypotheticals, but empiricals.

 

Just to entertain your comment though. It is the same thing

that the left said last time around (2000). It's what they said in 1980, 1984, and 1988. It never happened.

 

Roe v Wade will NOT be overturned. This is a bogey man.

[b-rock]

Ok then, Stem Cell Research, Doctor Assisted Suicide...?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Stem Cell research? My family has a long history of Parkinsons (a truely horrible disease)...

 

It's worth pointing out that Bush's policy only restricts *federal* funding of *new* lines of *embryonic* stem cells. He did not *ban* the research. It was a compromise.

 

There are still many avenues open:

1) state and local funding for the research (e.g. California's initiative)

2) private funding for the research

3) research of adult stem cells

[sexual_chocolate]

But spell out EXACTLY where his religion and politics mix, and then tell me how this is affecting you.

 

As a side-note, one can be a secularist and still be against abortion. I'm not a Christian, but I have grave reservations about the practice and its wide-spread use. The head of NARAL a few years ago compared an abortion to popping a pimple, and this type of blase attitude kinda horrifies me, really. (But, would I overturn Roe v Wade? No, I think to do that would be worse than the current ailment.)

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Ok then, ... Doctor Assisted Suicide...?

 

It has never been legal and is not a right that will be taken away from you. No previous president's court appointments legalized it, so I think it is a red herring (has nothing to do with Bush).

[Camilo]

It's legal in Oregon, twice approved by voters. Ashcroft has fought it since early in the administration. I think George Bush is his boss

[Jim]

It's legal in Oregon, twice approved by voters. Ashcroft has fought it since early in the administration. I think George Bush is his boss

 

Today the Bush administration asked the Supreme Court to take up the case of Oregon's Death with Dignity Act. Get government off our back - unless of course we disagree with the "values", whatever that is.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

It's legal in Oregon, twice approved by voters. Ashcroft has fought it since early in the administration. I think George Bush is his boss

 

OK, but has it been overturned in 4 years? Ashcroft is toast now, and his successor has yet to be approved. And the Supreme Court can choose to ignore any case that it does not wish to address. I don't think the law will be overturned. We'll see...

[Alpinfox]

How exactly has your life and freedoms been adversely affected since Jan 2001 as a direct result of Bush's religious convictions?

 

The "Patriot" Act reduced civil liberty. Bush's administration has accelerated the rape of the environment and the pollution of the air, water, and land. He has destroyed our credibility around the globe as a progressive leader on the environment and international justice (Kyoto, ICC, etc) and has reinforced our image as an international bully which is why the US is despised by many people around the world. He has done nothing to make this country or this planet a better place to live. He has sent innocent Americans off to kill innocent Iraqis (and a few guilty ones) all the while sitting behind a desk and making millions of dollars for his corporate cronies. He is a fucking criminal and I hope he rots in hell. Soon.

 

 

 

p.s. Did any of you actually go read that forum I posted the link to?

[slothrop]

Roe v Wade will NOT be overturned. This is a bogey man.

 

Why not? It is the stated goal of many conservative elected officials and interest groups that Roe v. Wade be overturned and abortion be made illegal nationwide. Now the Bush administration will soon be in the position to appoint at least one Supreme Court Justice, if not more. Arlen Specter is getting no support, from Bush or from fellow Republican Senators, for suggesting that a "litmus test" on Roe v. Wade is not an acceptable criterion for selecting a new Justice. In fact, conservatives have dogpiled Sen. Specter, demanding angrily that he be denied the chairmanship of the Judiciary Committee, for which he is next in line. Bush's insistence that he won't use a "litmus test" rings hollow.

 

All of this adds up to a real threat to Roe v. Wade. Saying "it won't happen" makes it seem like you're ignoring the news.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

How exactly has your life and freedoms been adversely affected since Jan 2001 as a direct result of Bush's religious convictions?

 

The "Patriot" Act reduced civil liberty. Bush's administration has accelerated the rape of the environment and the pollution of the air, water, and land. He has destroyed our credibility around the globe as a progressive leader on the environment and international justice (Kyoto, ICC, etc) and has reinforced our image as an international bully which is why the US is despised by many people around the world. He has done nothing to make this country or this planet a better place to live. He has sent innocent Americans off to kill innocent Iraqis all the while sitting behind a desk and making millions of dollars for his corporate cronies. He is a fucking criminal and I hope he rots in hell. Soon.

 

 

 

p.s. Did any of you actually go read that forum I posted the link to?

 

Yeah, right, his religious convictions were the basis for all the stuff you rant about.

[bDubyaH]

How exactly has your life and freedoms been adversely affected since Jan 2001 as a direct result of Bush's religious convictions?

 

The "Patriot" Act reduced civil liberty. Bush's administration has accelerated the rape of the environment and the pollution of the air, water, and land. He has destroyed our credibility around the globe as a progressive leader on the environment and international justice (Kyoto, ICC, etc) and has reinforced our image as an international bully which is why the US is despised by many people around the world. He has done nothing to make this country or this planet a better place to live. He has sent innocent Americans off to kill innocent Iraqis all the while sitting behind a desk and making millions of dollars for his corporate cronies. He is a fucking criminal and I hope he rots in hell. Soon.

 

 

 

p.s. Did any of you actually go read that forum I posted the link to?

 

Yeah, right, his religious convictions were the basis for all the stuff you rant about.

 

i prety much agree with all of these things, but didn't post them because they are not specifically relion based. i do feel however that the conservatie religious views are expressed loud and clear through any number of these policies

 

yes, i went to the forum. it was just one sided bashing. blah

[slothrop]

I worry that Bush's decision-making is based on a sense of moral clarity that keeps him from examining any contradictory evidence, or even being interested in such evidence. Once he's decided on something, no matter if it's patently false, he sticks with the idea. This kind of faith-based decision-making is a bad idea. I wouldn't want the guy playing navigator on a cross-country road trip, much less leading a nation.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I worry that Bush's decision-making is based on a sense of moral clarity that keeps him from examining any contradictory evidence, or even being interested in such evidence. Once he's decided on something, no matter if it's patently false, he sticks with the idea. This kind of faith-based decision-making is a bad idea. I wouldn't want the guy playing navigator on a cross-country road trip, much less leading a nation.

 

I think you're wrong about "considering contradictory evidence". I do agree that he sticks to his decisions, but prefer that to the waffling and political maneuvering that so often drives our leaders' decisions - often to the detriment of everyone.

[bDubyaH]

I wouldn't want the guy playing navigator on a cross-country road trip, much less leading a nation.

 

[Alpinfox]

 

Yeah, right, his religious convictions were the basis for all the stuff you rant about.

 

I don't care if the guy believes in Tarot and worships a golden ass (I suspect he actually worships corporate profit and power), he's still a menace to my way of life, most of the world, and to future generations. However, his faith (born again chrisitian fundamentalism stupidity) gives him a sense of moral self-righteousness and divine mandate motivating him to "mold the US in god's image".

 

It's clear that Bush wants to be remembered as a "transformational president" and imposing Christian - BORN-AGAIN-FUNDAMENTALIST-CHRISTIAN that is - morals on us is certainly part of his plan.

 

Woe vs. Wade is certainly NOT unassailable. It only passed by a 5-4 margin in 1973. It is a VERY REAL possibility that it will be overturned in the near future.

 

I can't believe a bunch of dipshit bible thumpers were able to get their man into the white house. I'm so embarrased.

[dryad]

How has my life been affected by Bush's policies?

 

Besides everything that has already been said, it has also made it more dangerous for me to travel abroad. Numerous times I was told not to tell anybody I'm American for fear of being targeted, and this was just in Nepal, a place pretty far removed from any areas of direct American military involvement. Not to mention all the other anti-American bullshit I got.

 

The world really does hate us now, and if you're American, you're assumed to be an asshole until you demonstrate otherwise.