climbing with two smaller diameter ropes?

[AJScott]

I want to start climbing a lot more alpine routes next summer and want some advice on switching to climbing with two smaller diameter ropes for a party of two. The benefits seem obvious to me, and I want to make the move to this style of climbing. Any advice on what type of ropes, and tips for making this system work well would be appreciated.

 

 

here's to a boring rainy weekend...

[John Frieh]

AJ:

 

I would recommend getting a pair of 70 m half ropes; especially if you climbing alpine rock. A half rope system will allow you to minimize rope drag on meandering pitches; something a single or a twin pair couldn't.

 

Do you plan on ever having the second jug one of the lines or will you ever use one of the lines to haul? This will determine the diameter you should get...

[chucK]

!!! double 70's! Holy cow! I'd suggest double 50's, but we've been through this before.

 

If you're doing alpine climbing where there's a lot of wandering terrain you are going to get ropedrag (doublerope drag here). Obviously you get more drag the further out from the belay you are. A 70m is gonna give you 20 more meters of maximal drag.

 

Also for alpine you will probably be doing non-trivial approaches to the climb. Think of the weight of two 70m ropes.

 

If you are doing stuff steep enough so that you don't get a lot of ropedrag, you might need a lot of gear for those 70m pitches too (more weight).

 

I guess you could compromise and get double 60's. I wouldn't, but then I'm screwed when I come across one of these climbs that requires 60m ropes.

 

 

Only tip I can think about that may not be obvious, is, if the leader is alternating ropes on the protection then when she come to a clip, the belayer can give her a bunch of slack for the clip beforehand since the clipping rope is not the one leading back to the closest pro.

 

Oh, and get two different color ropes, but you probably already figured that out.

[castlecrag]

Another word of advice...although tempting, don't get suckered into jugging up a single line on one of those things I say that with experience

[John Frieh]

Another word of advice...although tempting, don't get suckered into jugging up a single line on one of those things I say that with experience

 

Quit your whining Kirb... we topped out just fine if I recall... Maybe if you trained a little more you could follow 11c instead of jug it…

 

Chuck: generally the weight difference between a 60 and a 70 is a pound or two… I fully agree with saving weight at all costs but you should do it elsewhere… the time lost on an approach to 2 extra lbs on your back is easily regained (and then some) by being able to run pitches together or do a full climb in less pitches… example: I was able to avoid a hanging belay on a climb I did this summer that will remain nameless or the kids will get out the gay chest beater stamp again by having a pair of 70s instead of 60s (Kirb and I did it in 2 pitches). And if anything people may start with 70s and end up with 60s after a year of real use. But I digress… there are plenty of other threads he can look at for diameter decisions.

 

AJ needs to be more specific about the type/style of alpine climbing he will be doing…

[AJScott]

well, I guess i have learned that there is no perfect setup. I like nolse's style of linking up pitches, but I want to keep it light. I climb in the cascades and olympics, I want to do routes that are less frequented (perhaps more remote) so I want a light setup, that will support a team of two, with more flexibility than running one 60m. What is a safe diameter and reasonable length for weight?

[chelle]

halfs are usually 9mm but some systems are in the 8mm range. I personally like Chuck's system of 50m 1/2 ropes and if you run out trying to get to the next good belay...simulclimb for a bit. Requires good communication but it has worked for me.

 

Also on rappel thinner ropes tend to magically get themselves knotted up. So with shorter ropes there is less rope to get knotted and there is less rope to pull. On climbs like Forbidden East Ridge, you want to do shorter raps down to the east ledges to avoid rockfall when you pull ropes.

My $0.02.

[Dru]

Any ... tips for making this system work well would be appreciated.

 

 

here's to a boring rainy weekend...

 

reverso or reversino

[John Frieh]

well, I guess i have learned that there is no perfect setup. I like nolse's style of linking up pitches, but I want to keep it light. I climb in the cascades and olympics, I want to do routes that are less frequented (perhaps more remote) so I want a light setup, that will support a team of two, with more flexibility than running one 60m. What is a safe diameter and reasonable length for weight?

 

Do you plan on hauling with one of the lines while the second jugs the other? Do you plan on more alpine rock or alpine snow/ice (or both)?

 

And I second Dru's reverso recommendation...

[AJScott]

Do you plan on hauling with one of the lines while the second jugs the other? Do you plan on more alpine rock or alpine snow/ice (or both)?

 

And I second Dru's reverso recommendation...

 

 

I dont want to have to haul gear and jug lines unless neccessary, I would rather my partner and myself both climb the route. I havent done any ice climbing yet, but I am buying tools soon, so yes for rock, snow and ice. I want to climb alpine style, over any kind of terrain, and environment. I am young, I have a lot to learn...and a lot of gear to buy. Is there a certain rope company that people like more or less, and what diameter should I get?

 

thanks for helping me narrow my question. Like I mentioned, I am young and have a lot to learn.

[mattp]

I prefer the Edelweiss Stratos, 9 mil (it might be 8.8). It is actually rated to hold a fall as a single rope over an edge (though not rated for use that way - whatever that means - I think it is something to do with the NUMBER of falls they can hold). They cost twice as much as cheap ropes, but they have a stiff handle which means they seem to tangle less than others, and they are tough. I sometimes DO use mine as a single.

 

I agree about the 50m length except that there are increasing numbers of climbs that have been set with anchors made for '60's and I keep worrying that I will find my 50m too short. I can only remember a handful of time s where I ever really wanted the longer rope, as compared to hundreds of times where I've carried the longer rope only to be carrying extra cord. A lot of sport climbs are set for the longer ropes, though.

[catbirdseat]

Seems as though a pair of 50 meter half-ropes are effectively longer than a single 50 meter rope if there is any wander in the route. The individual ropes travel in a straighter line and hence go farther up the route.

[AJScott]

Thanks mattp, thats the kind of info I was looking for. I could have researched this topic a hundred different ways, but it was a rainy weekend and I decided to try and give the forums here a shot figuring a lot of people would be bored and looking for something to do. thanks

[rbw1966]

Buy 60M length. You may not always need the extra length but when you need it, it will be there. I've come up short with my 50M rope many times and I remember every one. I can't remember a single time when I said to myself "damn, I wish I had brought a shorter rope."

[John Frieh]

I agree about the 50m length except that there are increasing numbers of climbs that have been set with anchors made for '60's and I keep worrying that I will find my 50m too short.

 

People! He is asking about single ropes for alpine climbing ... not clipping bolts at the local crag! The whole reason to have 60 or 70 m ropes in the mtns is:

 

You make your own belays! The less belays you have to make the faster you will climb the route which will make it safer for you! A longer rope allows for less lead swapping!

 

And if you get on some genuine big routes and fail; you can chop rap anchors off the ends of your rope instead of having to carry 50-60’ of rap webbing.

 

Buy at least a 60 if you plan to climb alpine routes.

[John Frieh]

I dont want to have to haul gear and jug lines unless neccessary, I would rather my partner and myself both climb the route. I havent done any ice climbing yet, but I am buying tools soon, so yes for rock, snow and ice. I want to climb alpine style, over any kind of terrain, and environment. I am young, I have a lot to learn...and a lot of gear to buy. Is there a certain rope company that people like more or less, and what diameter should I get?

 

thanks for helping me narrow my question. Like I mentioned, I am young and have a lot to learn.

 

Look at the gear critic thread on mammut ropes; this should help you.

 

How young are you? I'm a youngin (though I am starting to push the limits of what is considered young) also; drop me a line if you are looking for more partners and have an interest in alpine...

[rbw1966]

I'm with NOLSe on this. You're young, not a lot of experience so buy gear thats a bit more versatile. Go with at least the 60M length.

[chucK]

Agreed. Double 60m ropes are excellent for training!

 

It builds your hiking endurance with the extra weight on the approach, make you a better climber from practicing climbing with the extra weight of Xtreme ropedrag, and give you 20% more practice in rope management skills.

 

Finally, once you've mastered all this stuff, you can cut off the extra 10m and use 'em for dogleashes.

 

ps: and that excellent alpine training route Infinite Bliss possibly requires 60m ropes.

[mattp]

I believe that 60 m ropes are rarely an advantage in alpine climbing. Climb the North Ridge of Stuart, the Beckey route on Nooksack Tower and Liberty Ridge on Rainier - once using 50mm ropes and a second time using the 60's. My guess is that you will add no more than a handful of belay's with the 50's, you will not have added more than one or two rappels max, and you will have spent significantly less less time untangling them while also carrying 20% less rope.

 

Admittedly, I have the 60's, though, because I worry about the once every ten days of climbing where I want the exra length. However, for me that is almost always in a cragging situation, not alpine.

 

If you use a single rope for cragging, I'd buy a 60m single rope, and a pair of 50m doubles.

[chucK]

I just thought of another excellent training characteristic of 60m ropes. Once you're winded from 10m of extra Xtreme rope drag; then, you sit down to belay and you get to yard the extra draggy rope up another 10m with one hand while belaying your second. This gives you a bit more of a grip-strength workout.

 

re: N Ridge of Stuart, we used a single 60m and we were happy to have the extra length for the crux pitch on the lower ridge. We then doubled it for the Gendarme pitches (so we could haul the packs with one strand). I guess if you had twin 60's you could link the gendarme pitches. That might have saved us 10 minutes.

[John Frieh]

The bottom line: we each have all found a certain length that works for us... here are a few TRs I wrote that illustrate why I like 70 m ropes. Don't click them if you don't want to.

 

TR in which linking pitches with a 70 m allowed me to do 3 routes in a day.

 

TR in which linking pitches with a 70 m allowed me to do 2 routes in a day.

 

I avoided a hanging belay on the girth pillar with 70 m ropes and did the pillar in 2 pitches instead of the 3 the guidebook calls for. Numerous other examples exist...

 

Consider reading Twight's discussion on rope lengths/diameter in extreme alpinism... he makes some good points.

 

ChucK makes a good point: if you are new to alpine you will struggle initially with rope management; 70s might be a bit much. 60 might be a good compromise unless you feel certain you can stay diligent in your rope management.

[scott_harpell]

I like 50's. I like a 60 meter rope for cragging, but I think the difference between time saved by linking pitches vs. weight carried is pretty much negated. I usually link pitches by simulclimbing anyways and rope drang usually makes me stop before the tug at the end of the rope.

[mattp]

As you note, NOLSe, it is largely a matter of style. For speed-climbing on the kind of alpine rock routes you listed, linking pitches can be advantageous. If AJ strives to climb like Mark Twight, he might want to start out with 70 mm ropes but I think that the mastery of other techniques is probably a highier priority than learning to link pitches without creating a mess.

 

I bet if our friend Scott goes out and performs my same experiment on the West Ridge of Forbidden, the Fischer Chimney route on Shuksan, and the North Ridge of Mount Baker (a representation of three very different types of alpine climbs, but an easier selection than my first menu) he will get the same result: very few belays avoided and few if any rappels reduced.

 

 

 

For sure he'll want to have that 60m rope if he goes after modern routes at the crags, though.

[scott_harpell]

Baisically I don't find that the majority of routes I do are right at my limit for the duration of the climb. I like simulclimbing with a partner I have confidence in... often times, we will go until the rope goes tight and hen simul unless we communicate otherwise. I couldn't do this with a 70 I don't think as the weight would be starting to become a factor. One route that I recall this being the case was the squamish butress... we simuled 90% of that route and I can bet you that we climbed it faster with a 50 than we could have with a 70.

[Dru]

As you note, NOLSe, it is largely a matter of style. For speed-climbing on the kind of alpine rock routes you listed, linking pitches can be advantageous. If AJ strives to climb like Mark Twight, he might want to start out with 70 mm ropes but I think that the mastery of other techniques is probably a highier priority than learning to link pitches without creating a mess.

 

I bet if our friend Scott goes out and performs my same experiment on the West Ridge of Forbidden, the Fischer Chimney route on Shuksan, and the North Ridge of Mount Baker (a representation of three very different types of alpine climbs, but an easier selection than my first menu) he will get the same result: very few belays avoided and few if any rappels reduced.

 

 

 

For sure he'll want to have that 60m rope if he goes after modern routes at the crags, though.

 

I don't think you even need to rope up on Fischer Chimneys, so what's the point of using it as an example? Also on Baker N ridge there is what, 2 pitches of technical climbing...again seems irrelevant.