Another Smith Rock Etiquette Question

[Thrill]

Glass,

 

I'm in no way close to an outstanding climber as yourself.

[John Frieh]

Trad climbing is different and most trad climbers would agree.. it’s more mellow, laid back, take your time and make good placements, enjoy the peace.

 

I disagree.

 

Trad climbing is practice for the alpine.

 

Speed is safety in the alpine.

 

Therefore practice trad climbing quickly and proficiently.

 

 

Consider this: Your policy for getting passed is bonking them with a # 11 hex… what if my policy for slow parties is bonking them with my # 11 hex as I go by? Or bootying all their gear as I go by? Probably wouldn’t like it, huh?

 

In this day and age climbers are mastering speed climbing and then applying it in the alpine… look at the results in Patagonia produced by the kids who spend there summers in the valley.

 

No one is telling you how to climb or at what speed… if you prefer the scenic cruise more power to you. But return us the favor and don’t tell us how to climb (slower)… if we catch you: pull over. If anything it will give you even more time to enjoy the route.

 

Glassglow: you commentary is unproductive to the board. Clean it up.

Edited October 5, 2004 by NOLSe

[RuMR]

Trad climbing is different and most trad climbers would agree.. it’s more mellow, laid back, take your time and make good placements, enjoy the peace.

 

I disagree.

 

Trad climbing is practice for the alpine.

 

Speed is safety in the alpine.

 

Practice trad climbing quickly and proficiently.

 

 

Consider this: Your policy for getting passed is bonking them with a # 11 hex… what if my policy for slow parties is bonking them with my # 11 hex as I go by? Or bootying all their gear as I go by? Probably wouldn’t like it, huh?

 

In this day and age climbers are mastering speed climbing and then applying it in the alpine… look at the results in Patagonia produced by the kids who spend there summers in the valley.

 

No one is telling you how to climb or at what speed… if you prefer the scenic cruise more power to you. But return us the favor and don’t tell us how to climb (slower)… if we catch: pull over. If anything it will give even more time to enjoy the route.

 

For once, i agree w/ what you said...

[iain]

In this day and age climbers are mastering speed climbing and then applying it in the alpine… look at the results in Patagonia produced by the kids who spend there summers in the valley

 

Not according to some pretty good climbers, according to the latest AAC journal...

[John Frieh]

In this day and age climbers are mastering speed climbing and then applying it in the alpine… look at the results in Patagonia produced by the kids who spend there summers in the valley

 

Not according to some pretty good climbers, according to the latest AAC journal...

 

Which article are you referring to?

[Thrill]

there are more trad climbers that NEVER climb alipine.. your argument is invalid.

but i do agree that in ALPINE yes speed is good.

dont generalize how people should react..

[glassgowkiss]

thrill, you can call me like everyone else- bob. second, nothing personal. just i noticed a lot of people on this bb hide behind avatars and say shit they would not have guts to say in real life. i agree- it's rude not to ask while trying to pass, but it is equally or more rude not to offer to pass by a slower party. what people call here crowding is nothing compared to what's happening in some areas in europe. my point is- you can usually observe on a multi pitch climb if there is someone behind you and how fast they are. and leting someone fast go through is not rally that big of a deal- they will be long gone before you know it.

[chucK]

Since everyone is getting so lovey-dovey here, let's ask some tougher questions.

 

1. What if a party (who seems faster) pulls up behind, asks nicely to pass, and the route you're on is notorious for rockfall (Dragontail, Infinite Bliss, Chair Peak, etc.)?

 

2. What if a party does come up behind you, but just doesn't seem to be that much faster than you? (example: many easy pitches then a hard pitch that slows you down temporarily which lets other party catch up). If they ask nicely to pass, do you let them?

[Thrill]

as in Golf.. it is up to the lead party to let you go by or not.. you'll only catch up with another party.. should EVERYONE move over and bow to you?

Here we go with the “I’m better then thou.” Attitude.

 

You will always find someone faster and better then you.. (even you Glass) you will always find someone that thinks you DON’T belong on the route, but it isn’t true. If you are climbing safely and doing your thing then you belong.. the elitist can deal with the wrath they create.

We have a difference in opinion and that’s how it’s gonna be.

[iain]

Not according to some pretty good climbers, according to the latest AAC journal...

 

Which article are you referring to?

 

The "mixed messages" one about sport mixed climbing's impact on alpine climbing. More a collection of emails than an article. Some from washingtonians who have posted here! But this is off topic I suppose...

[Thrill]

Glass,

I do agree with you. .. sometimes.

[glassgowkiss]

Glassglow: you commentary is unproductive to the board. Clean it up.

what are you trying to produce. so far i have seen only a river of verbal turd and pissing match (i have a big part of it)

i would argue about trad climbing being training for alpine- it can be. it's like trying to say that bouldering is training for sport climbing. it can be, but some people never roped up in their life.

[John Frieh]

there are more trad climbers that NEVER climb alipine.. your argument is invalid.

but i do agree that in ALPINE yes speed is good.

dont generalize how people should react..

 

Let me reword it:

 

You and some other climbers enjoy trad climbing at a leisurely pace to enjoy the view.

 

Other climbers, such as myself, trad climb to become more proficient for the alpine. Hence we attempt to climb as quickly as possible.

 

If you enjoy the leisurely pace; why wouldn’t want to pull over? Pulling over allows you even more time to enjoy the views?

[Thrill]

This is where it is ok to disagree. There are too many things to take into consideration…

Who is climbing, what they want out of this climb, etc. are they having a good day or a bad day, is it Bob up there? All sorts of things to consider. ..

My point is when coming up on someone if you use the better then thou attitude and think you are just going to pass…. I have my heavy #11 on a sling… but if you are nice like the guy that made the first post and I still get pissed at you.. then you have a right to apologize and make me feel like crap. For me nothing is worse then when I act like an asshole and the other party makes me look in the mirror..

We can go on all day about what people SHOULD do, yet people are very different… so I believe the only thing you should ever expect is to be courteous and hope you are treated the same way.

[skyclimb]

No one is telling you how to climb or at what speed… if you prefer the scenic cruise more power to you

 

Isn't the scenic cruise a grade V 5.10 in the black canyon of the gunnison

You wanna be off that thing before dark you better be moving fast, kind of ironic however, because the black canyon isn't alpine, it is a canyon. So where does this leave us

[Gary_Yngve]

as in Golf.. it is up to the lead party to let you go by or not.. you'll only catch up with another party.. should EVERYONE move over and bow to you?

Here we go with the “I’m better then thou.” Attitude.

 

You will always find someone faster and better then you.. (even you Glass) you will always find someone that thinks you DON’T belong on the route, but it isn’t true. If you are climbing safely and doing your thing then you belong.. the elitist can deal with the wrath they create.

We have a difference in opinion and that’s how it’s gonna be.

 

Hans Florine passed seven parties in one of his sub-four-hour jaunts on the Nose.

[John Frieh]

No one is telling you how to climb or at what speed… if you prefer the scenic cruise more power to you

 

Isn't the scenic cruise a grade V 5.10 in the black canyon of the gunnison

You wanna be off that thing before dark you better be moving fast, kind of ironic however, because the black canyon isn't alpine, it is a canyon. So where does this leave us

 

It leaves us at reading comprehension... I wasn't referring to that climb but making a reference to Thrills climbing pace. I used scenic cruise as it is similar to what old people do on Sundays or in their RVs.

[iain]

I love that "I'm training for the alpine" shit I hear from people climbing at smith, or any crag. "I'm not here to have fun, I'm training...training for the hardman alpine fast-n-light stuff."

[Gary_Yngve]

Since everyone is getting so lovey-dovey here, let's ask some tougher questions.

 

1. What if a party (who seems faster) pulls up behind, asks nicely to pass, and the route you're on is notorious for rockfall (Dragontail, Infinite Bliss, Chair Peak, etc.)?

 

2. What if a party does come up behind you, but just doesn't seem to be that much faster than you? (example: many easy pitches then a hard pitch that slows you down temporarily which lets other party catch up). If they ask nicely to pass, do you let them?

 

1) A party of three let us pass on Serpentine on DTail one time, but only when the terrain eased (after the 5.8 pitch above the pillar). We waited for at least two hours before they let us pass. We didn't drop a single thing onto them once we were above them. But that's all I want to say about your sticky question.

 

2) Nope. I tell them that I don't think they're any faster than us, but we'll reevaluate on the next pitch. Also, in my opinion, one of the rudest things you can do on a route is to ask to pass, be given the pass, and then make the party you passed wait. If you pass, you better be damn well sure you can get out of their way in a hurry. And I've heard plenty of stories from friends who had gapers ask them to pass on Outer Space only to have my friends refuse, top out, walk down, and still see said gapers enroute.

[Thrill]

John,

don’t assume you know my pace. out of the 7 parties passed on the nose there just might have been another party that was trying to beat their best time. since Hans is better they let him pass.. but because of that decision he fawked up their chances at making good time. there comes a point when EVEYONE is training. If it is a noobe training to not be a noobe anymore, or Bob training for the Alps, EVERYONE is training.. and EVERYONE has a right.

You may believe you have the right to pass.. but you may also come up on someone that doesn’t believe you have the right. You’ll have to make a decision then. just like Grandpa on HWY 101 as long as he has a license and insurance he has the right to be there and if that yellow line is solid I have to follow at his pace.. period. If I break the law and get into road rage.. then that is my own fault. People need to take responsibility for their own actions. If you make a decision to pass me without asking or ignore if I said no, then you must live with my reaction. Regardless if you have alpine experience, have climbed the nose 5 times in a day, or wiped your ass on the Alps.

[dkemp]

There isn’t a “golden rule” of climbing...

 

Not true. Same golden rule that applies to everything else. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Real simple - good stuff.

[Bogen]

If I get up at 4 am to climb some long route with loose rock, you shouldn't even be trying to pass. If an area has lineups, all you do is catch the next party, pushing my party back. Same as freeway traffic, when it's bumper to bumper there is always some jackass weaving in and out of traffic. Should EVERYONE pull right just for the odd speed freak? It's logistically ridiculous.

The answer to the question is completely situational. Communicate. If I'm up there with noobs, or working something a little hard for me, and someone steams up on me asking to pass, I'll ask whether they know the route, whether they are going to be in my way later, what the rockfall hazard is. If that person is reasonable, we will come to a reasonable, probably amicable solution. If that person is not reasonable, he is going to have a frustrating day, if not life...

The initial poster did everything correct, although perhaps too apologetically. The woman ahead of his group was spreading her frustration, he shouldn't have accepted it. They weren't trying to pass or anything, and completely not in the way. Probably the previous second saw the wife leading and suddenly felt inferior (justifiably,) and tried to bring her down. Sounds like she succeeded somewhat, and that's a real travesty.

[skyclimb]

Didn't Ed Webster free solo the scenic cruise in 1979

so basically he wan't training, because he didn't place gear or carry a #11 hex

Actually, maybe he did carry a #11 hex so he could bludgeon people as he passed just for shits and grins.

ahh, good

[Thrill]

DKemp.. you got me there.

Sky.. LOL that was good.

[Gary_Yngve]

John,

don’t assume you know my pace. out of the 7 parties passed on the nose there just might have been another party that was trying to beat their best time. since Hans is better they let him pass.. but because of that decision he fawked up their chances at making good time.

 

That depends -- did those other parties have third-party timers?