Jump to content
  • Announcements

    • olyclimber

      WELCOME TO THE CASCADECLIMBERS.COM FORUMS   02/03/18

      We have upgraded to new forum software as of late last year, and it makes everything here so much better!  It is now much easier to do pretty much anything, including write Trip Reports, sell gear, schedule climbing related events, and more. There is a new reputation system that allows for positive contributors to be recognized,  it is possible to tag content with identifiers, drag and drop in images, and it is much easier to embed multimedia content from Youtube, Vimeo, and more.  In all, the site is much more user friendly, bug free, and feature rich!   Whether you're a new user or a grizzled cascadeclimbers.com veteran, we think you'll love the new forums. Enjoy!
Sign in to follow this  
Dane

Thanks hero.

Recommended Posts

Dane,

 

From a strictly objective viewpoint, you come off as a hot-head working on a good mission. I've read your posts and watched this battle from a distance and have only these things to say:

 

--I agree with your objections to the new 'ethics' at Dishman.

 

--I appreciate your efforts to clean up the place and repair some of the damage.

 

--I disagree with your compulsion to RUSH the coalition process along.

 

--I disagree with your inflamatory remarks and jabs at many of those who don't give you their immediate allegiance.

 

As I said, I personally support the cause of maintaining the longstanding tradional ethics at Dishman, but I think that trying to rush the repair process along can only be detrimental in the long run.

 

Consider taking more time to bring all the parties together. It's almost guaranteed that people with such differing views will take months if not years to reach an acceptable solution. A good negotiator will not give up after 1, 2, 5, or even 10 failed attempts at building the consensus you claim to seek.

 

The bolt war you're directly involved in will only hurt the resource you profess to protect. My advice to you, fwiw, is to step back, take a deep breath, squelch your ego, reorder your priorites, and make additional attempts to reach out to those doing the things you object to.

 

By being a little more reasonable and less reactive, you'll also make yourself much less of a target. Imagine the gratification your 'rebolting hero' has gotten from watching this whole subject online.....parts of that certainly could have been avoided.

 

my 2 cents.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You know what I think the Access Fund should do? Go out and buy some land with some rock on it, it can even be nice rock. Tell the guys who are chipping and bolting on holds that the can do WHATEVER they want with the land and the rock. As time passes, some bolts find their way onto the face, then some faces that are pretty clean get chipped a bit, and when the climbers realize that even the chip holds make it too hard, the just bolt on some big jugs. So they are happy as a clam and then all of the sudden fall rolls around, and shit you know what, it's starting to rain. How bout we build a room over the rock? Excellent idea! So they build a roof and now they have dry rock any time they want. A month goes by and the climbers realize "shit it's fucking cold out!" Lets builds some walls around the roof? BRILLIANT! So the climbers build the walls, add some heating. Wow this is great, we have warm and dry climbing all year long. So the months pass, a latte machine arrives, they put in a snack bars, some showers and a bathroom. Getting tired of washing their cars the pave the road leading to the gym.... umm I mean crag.
\

 

THAT IS SUCH AN AWESOME IDEA!! Then i won't have to fret about this damn rain and skiing and f-ing snow bullshit!! thumbs_up.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As someone who has quietly read most of the posts regarding Dishman both here as well as www.InlandNWRock.com I offer a modest comment. In all honesty I have never climbed at Dishman though I am relocating to the area so I hope to one day, so my concern is simply as a climber.

In regards to the clean-up on Sept 26th I offer this:

-Energy, effort and results are commendable.

-The discussion and negotiations leading up to the clean-up were poor (based on posts no first hand knowledge)

-How the clean-up was announced and the tally listed was very aggressive bordering on taunting. Perhaps leading to the quick and hostile response.

-The initial bolting practices (holds and bolts by cracks), chipping, graffiti, etc... as well as the subsequent rebolting were wrong but the latter was challenged.

 

Andy & MattP

I have always respected the work the AF has done and thank you for your vigilance. As to the WCC I have little knowledge but would be interested in learning more. Regardless anyone who offers up one's time is to be commended. I agree that people need to step aside; it seems that even the both of you have some personal involvement. That is why I encourage you to advise the AF to step in to help address the concerns of the landowners as well as mediate with the climbers involved on all sides. Perhaps with the leadership of the AF and the cooperation of the WCC, Area Climbers and perhaps the Spokane Mountaineers a Spokane Climber Advisory Board (SCAB) could be created? The cost of such a board could be funded by holding a fund raiser with excess proceeds going to make Land Owner approved improvements i.e. Gate or Barrier.

Of course the creation of such a Board would require the cooperation of all parties involved as well as a temporary ban on all route development/improvement. This would include the obvious bolting, chipping impacts as well as the cleaning of trad lines (established or FA) or removal of any more bolts/holds etc... As for evaluating routes this would be a job for the Board.

 

To the AF

Enough could be said about AF to fill pages of posts so I can only thank you all for your work and shamefully confess that even though I am aware of the importance of your work I have never taken the time to become a member. I hope to rectify that someday.

I understand the importance of trying to work with all involved and maintain some measure of impartiality but I suggest that a formal statement regarding Dishman specifically is important for all parties concerned. The benefits of a statement from AF directed at Dishman rather than simply listing a set of standards put forth by AF is that everyone involved would know exactly what your organization wanted the end result to be. I assume that you want the people who are involved with the bolting, chipping, etc... to repair or at the very least accept that such practices are inappropriate if for no other reason then the land owner says no. You also want to encourage future climbers involved with a similar conflict to seek dialogue before action. I understand this takes time and I do not presume to tell your organization that closing crags is easy- reopening takes time. Supporting a closing would be the last resort only if necessary to maintain a relationship with the land owner. I feel that regardless of where anyone stands we are all climbers and would prefer to climb rather than not climb. It is clear that the land owner does not want this to continue. I am not suggesting a closure just some oversight and arbitration. The results at Dishman could affect all climbers, especially those dealing with access issues. Again I do not need to be reminding AF that people do talk and other land owners must look unfavorably at what is going on at Dishman.

To finish I hope the AF takes this into consideration to help resolve the conflicts. Most climbers, my self included do not have the practice or information to resolve this without the experience of an organization like the Access Fund. If you do decided to get more actively involved post a call for help from area climbers I hope that I can apply the commitment to assist.

 

Sincerely

Mike Klotz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Michael,

 

I haven't checked in on the Dishman issue for a bit and am incredibly disappointed to find that the vandalism has been repeated. And given my intention of contacting the AF in regards to a review of access issues at Beacon I am somewhat disheartened by the following statement:

 

The Access Fund does not support “access at all costs” but we do recognize that every situation may require a unique approach with a long-term perspective. We have a dual mandate to preserve natural resources and to ensure climbers’ access. In order to accomplish this, a balance of ethics and style must often be reached. Sometimes, it takes time for all of this to become clear.

 

It is somewhat hard to imagine a more [politically] tortured example of "access at all costs" struggling for a voice than this - regardless of the benevolent objective of solution finding. But, hey, when that "solution" embraces acts of deliberate vandalism than I have to suspect the motives of the AF or your interpretation of AF's charter. I don't know Dane, but I don't see many other folks standing up and giving clear focus and voice to the obvious. And if the AF can't articulate a clear, easy to understand, statement of what is acceptable ethics [at Dishman] then it is well on the way to espousing a deliberate bias which will result in a loss of credibility on the larger political stage of environmental/resource issues over time.

 

This isn't rocket science, and it isn't about drama or ego, it's about common sense and collective self-respect. What's gone on at Dishman should not be open to compromise - it is wrong and unacceptable. It was vandalism before and it's vandalism now. If it comes down to accepting this behavior as part of a "solution" for the sake of maintaining access then we are prepared to sell our collective soul for access plain and simple and "Dishman" will become the very definition of "access at all costs"

 

If the bottom line comes down to a bolt war perpetrated by irresponsible and unrelenting vandals or losing access to a closure - I have to take exception to both your's and Dane's position and vote for a complete closure. If these vandals persist then there is really no ethical alternative I can see other than cleaning it up one more time and shutting it down. Anything else makes the climbing community as a whole a part of the problem.

 

- Joseph

 

P.S. I will be contacting you and the AF about a review of the Beacon raptor closures relative to what is in effect elsewhere around the country. But that said, I don't mind sharing the cliff with them even if it means continuing the complete closure half the year...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Joseph,

Out of curiousity I checked this sting to see what people thought regarding my long winded opinion. I agree with you regarding the "access at all cost" statement and I can only say that is not my intention. I would not expect to allow such practices in order to keep the crag open. What I was most trying to get across is when pressed for a stance the AF simply listed a bunch of standards that they adhere to without making specific references to Dishman. What has been going on there is wrong and has never been acceptable practice for the majority of the climbing community. I was hoping that AF would make a clear statement saying as much in an effort to bring some leadership to hear. I do agree that selling your soul by allowing such practices, in exchange for access would be wrong.

Thank you for your well thought out post.

cheers, bigdrink.gif

mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If this is what the person wants why is there all this discussion? To me its a no brainer. Everyone either comply or tell the land manager that it's a no go and have them post it...KAPU, Halt, Forbidden Zone...all trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again. Simple.

These are the concerns recently voiced to me by the land manager and the issues that threaten climber access to Dishman rocks

 

1. chipped holds

2. bolted on gym holds

3. excessive bolting

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So i just happpend across this forum the other day, and got to readin about this dishman issue. I was completly shocked! Dishman is where it all started for me, i've since been in oregon for the last 5 years so have been out of the loop.

Im not planning on being another ranter on this forum, but am eager to hear about whats happening and/or what is likely to happen. Is there anywhere else online that has information about this occurance?

 

a side note...does anyone know who bolted all the routes on the small cliff up by Ponderosa Elementary school. The rocks with the horrible ugly new house planted on the hill in front.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

go east on sprague, i think its appelway now, then turn onto dishman mica highway, go to schafer road, take a right halfway up the hill....the rocks themselves are on the 'face' of dishman hills, visible from dishman mica road.

 

What kind of petition you talkin about?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was glad to see the AF leaders finally say what their position was; however, I was still disapointed in them not taking a stronger stance as to what is right and what is wrong. I might not ever climb at Dishman but then again I might end up moving there and it could end up being my home crag. Issues such as these can affect every climber whether they climb there or not.

 

As someone who has climbed for nearly 30 years and had routes retrobolted and had bolts they placed chopped I have seen and been involved in a lot of issues and been on both sides. It makes no difference how good you are it is a matter of right and wrong.

 

Just like society climbers have their fringe elements. Just like the guy who vandalizes public or private prorperty the "climbers" (and I use that term loosely) who placed holds and chipped have performed a disservice and an act against the rest of the climbing community. I believe that it would be good to hear even stronger words form the AF and WCC concerning bolting on holds and chipping as these are the worst infractions against the climbing community.

 

 

From the AF HomePage..............."Climbers involved in the placement or removal of fixed anchors have a responsibility to be aware of the implications of their actions on climbing access and the cliff environment. Chopping bolts and chipping holds harm the climbing resource and the climbing experience. The physical acts can permanently scar the rock itself, and often result in division among members of the climbing community. When such division becomes public, it tarnishes the image of climbers to the public at large and to land owners and managers."

 

I think the AF would also be wise to update their stance on bolted on holds on natural rock. It would appear from this statement that climbers fighting amongst themselves pose a greater evil than bolted on plastic as I found nothing in their site that mentioned those hienous acts.

 

I would highly encourage the AF to define acts of vandalism at cliffs.....and chopping bolts and bolted on holds should not be considered an act of vandalism but a dastardly response to an even more dastardly deed...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dishman still open. Seems to be an endless supply of bolts out there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay. Let's say that bolting is wrong and I totally agree. And lets say that as far as crags go Dishman is a shithole, but that doesn't make bolting cracks right. For gods sake if you don't have the balls to climb a crack don't fucking climb it. As Twight said, "Not in my book." However, can someone lay down why exactly is it wrong. Or is Dane just trying to preserve the glory of yesteryear. This is a guy who said that he didn't climb anything under a 1000' in height yet he put up many routes at post falls, dishman, Chimney, and Frenchman's. Really where does the truth begin and the bullshit end?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Okay. Let's say that bolting is wrong and I totally agree. And lets say that as far as crags go Dishman is a shithole, but that doesn't make bolting cracks right. For gods sake if you don't have the balls to climb a crack don't fucking climb it. As Twight said, "Not in my book." However, can someone lay down why exactly is it wrong. Or is Dane just trying to preserve the glory of yesteryear. This is a guy who said that he didn't climb anything under a 1000' in height yet he put up many routes at post falls, dishman, Chimney, and Frenchman's. Really where does the truth begin and the bullshit end?

 

 

Nice. This is the kind of extremely accurate and intelligent responses I peruse climbing forums for.

 

Dishman would be better if the girls from the Vu would walk up there and give free lap dances to belayers.

 

Now that would be newsworthy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

×