Bushy science and the marbled murrelet

[ken4ord]

But Goddamn if a whole lot of "science" isn't being funded and conducted by the radically-environmental side, and the studies begin with high expectations as to what the outcome will be.

 

Oh, really? What "radically-environmental" side has the money to provide significant financial support to ANY research? Greenpeace? The Sierra Club?

 

The research that this administration refuses to accept is funded by "radicals" such as the National Institutes of Health, the National Science Foundation, and other highly respected agencies that do not have a specific political agenda.

 

Ideologically-driven "scientists" have infiltrated governmental departments such as the US Forest Service, and I am sure others. They are, like Jim, pushing their tree-hugger, animal-worshipper agenda from the inside. You guys were wrong on the spotted owl, weren't you? Come to find out another predator started eating the shit out of them. The logging ultimately had nothing to do with it - you worship nature and don't care that you are putting people out of work.

 

Dumbass it was't a predator, it was in direct competiton with the Barred Owl. From what I understand the reduction of habitat forced greater competition between the two species. The Barred Owl was a better competitor hence why there was/is still a decline in the Spotted Owl numbers. So it is a combination of reduction of habitat and competition factors why they are declining. Can anybody add to this, that what I understand what is going on? Predator therory is new one to me.

 

Also all this bullshit of "infiltrated" the governmet agencies pushing tree-hugging and animal worship makes for some dumbass conspiracy therory. You when I see you at PC and the crags and stuff like a pretty decent person who for all right have some intelligent thought in the cage upstair, but then you spew dumbass shit like this, I tend to think what a moron.

 

I can't believe I sucked this one. These spray threads are worse than trolls, because there are people out the believe some unfounded information.

[Greg_W]

Also all this bullshit of "infiltrated" the governmet agencies pushing tree-hugging and animal worship makes for some dumbass conspiracy therory. You when I see you at PC and the crags and stuff like a pretty decent person who for all right have some intelligent thought in the cage upstair, but then you spew dumbass shit like this, I tend to think what a moron.

 

Hi, Ken. This comes from someone who has been in the Forest Service for over 30 years and has seen the shift in actions and decisions of the wildlife biologists. It's happening.

[RobBob]

Nothing like a good environment thread to bring us all together. Feel the lovveeeee!

[Alpinfox]

How is it, exactly, that "the White House doles out lavish subsidies and tax breaks to the energy barons" again? They don't make the laws, Congress does. Nor do they control the budget, Congress does.

 

The president proposes legislation and budgets that are passed into law by congress; thereby "making" law and budgets. Semantics. duh. The president also appoints people to run agencies like the EPA and FDA. The people that the Bush administration has appointed to lots of those posts are former lobbyists FOR THE INDUSTRIES THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO REGULATE. This is giving the fox the keys to the chicken coop.

 

I'll loan the book to you when I'm done Greg.

 

SHOW ME THE MONEY! Sources of Bush's campaign contributions and the benefits those c¾ðOibutors recieved

[Chriznitch]

unfortunately for every owl, murrelet, or acre saved in the US there are many more foreign resources being compromised due to consumers' needs

[ken4ord]

You're all full of shit if you think you can debunk scientific findings without actually being familiar with the studies themselves. It's actually quite easy to read a scientific paper and tell whether their assumptions, methods, and interpretations hold merit. The problems arise when people who know nothing about science pretend to understand, merely to justify their agenda. The typical politician has no idea how (let alone the time) to critically analyze a scientific study, and doesn't give a shit about the scientific method unless it involves his fundraising and/or his re-election.

 

Totally agree. For those of you that don't know what a scientific paper should look like the following is sort of the basics. A scientific report should have an abstract (summary of the study), introduction (the purpose why you are performing the study), method (how you went about the study, detail of the study), results (what happened), conclusion (what can be extrapulated from the data. Newsweek or CNN or FOX News really doesn't cut it.

[ken4ord]

Also all this bullshit of "infiltrated" the governmet agencies pushing tree-hugging and animal worship makes for some dumbass conspiracy therory. You when I see you at PC and the crags and stuff like a pretty decent person who for all right have some intelligent thought in the cage upstair, but then you spew dumbass shit like this, I tend to think what a moron.

 

Hi, Ken. This comes from someone who has been in the Forest Service for over 30 years and has seen the shift in actions and decisions of the wildlife biologists. It's happening.

 

So your saying that one persons says this and because they have 30 years of experience we should take this and believe it? Sorry man, your gonna have to come up with something better than that make believe some humbo jumbo hearsay like that, jeezus.

[Greg_W]

It's happening, I'm just telling you the source. What you do with the information is up to you - believe, don't believe; It doesn't matter to me, nor does it negate the fact that it's happening.

[Alpinfox]

I agree with Greg. Since the publication of "Silent Spring" scientists have become increasingly aware of the negative impacts of technology upon the environment and have chosen to study environmental science/fisheries/forestry/etc with the goal of making positive changes from within the establishment. This is a good thing. I believe that the vast majority of these scientists are ethical and perform objective science, but the subjects they choose to study are directed by their philosophical bent.

 

So, to rephrase Greg's quote:

" Global warming, deforestation, pollution, ozone depletion, loss of species diversity, depletion of natural resources, loss of habitat, etc are happening. What you do with the information is up to you - believe, don't believe; It doesn't matter to me [actually it does matter to me], nor does it negate the fact that it's happening.

[glacier]

Here's a litany of articles regarding Bush's resistance to science - I'm trying to find a couple of articles I've seen (Slate? New Repbulic?) describing this adminstration as being anti-scientific, but no luck so far.

[Dru]

Even SCientific American said Bush was anti-science.

[JosephH]

You should keep in mind that protecting the environment is not really about taking care of the planet - it's about safeguarding your lifestyle - the planet has proven over and over again it is quite capable of taking care of itself.

 

Mercury in fish, collapsed fisheries, loss of habitat, loss of species - it's really only about what lifestyle you want for yourself and your children. Humans, or any species for that matter, that get out of balance will suffer the consequences sooner or later. How? Well, think about it - most of us, fundamentally, really do have a very incomplete, macro worldview of life, whereas microbiologists, parasitologists, mycologists, and virologists tend take in and enjoy a more wholistic and "balanced" view of the world and our place in it as, well, "hosts" to a broader, and more exciting community of life.

 

My personal favorite among popular denials are folks that don't care about habitat destruction and species loss - particularly large mammals and primates. You can tell they suffer from the rather enviable delusion that all the bacterial and viral loads hosted by these species will simply lie down and die with them going quietly into the night. How Disney for them! In reality, however, all of these lower order species will attempt to find other hosts. And though most will fail, guess what! The odds aren't half bad that at least one or two will make the jump to some other abundant host (and hey, that's you - the current life of the [Republican] party!).

 

AIDS, TB, Polio, Flu...Ha! Won't get me! But then those babies don't really try too hard to get you either. World out of balance - hey, you'd be amazed at how frightfully simple the cure is. And to be completely honest, over the next thirty years given the way things are going habitat and population-wise, I wouldn't worry too much about fish, birds, wars, WMD's, asteroids, supervolcanoes, or mega-tsunamis - I'd worry about the little things. And the science, how accommodating, both sides of all these arguments will still make absolutely fabulous hosts - and heck, that's a good thing, it will finally be something we can all just agree on...!

 

[P.S. Here is a link to the description of how one of the aforementioned little buggers hijacks normal cell functions for its own purposes - fascinating read, though, it is science and no doubt highly dubious and debateable:

 

The HIV Gag protein contains a specific sequence of amino acids which it uses to recruit the human tumor susceptibility gene 101 (TSG101). The virus then uses TSG101 to take control of the protein sorting and vesicle formation machinery and use it for its own purposes. ]

[RobBob]

someone put pen to paper a little too soon after using the hookah.

 

if you're trying to say what I think you're trying to say...well, it ain't gonna take extinction of lower-order primates to give us a nice pandemic. It's probably only gonna take a few of the wrong frickin ducks flying by a few filthy Shanghai chickenfarms. Next thing you know, when the chicken-flu starts, then Harry Pi's cousin starts sellin as many of his chickens as he can, knowing it won't be long before The Man discovers the disease outbreak and burns his flocks...and voila, the pandemic begins. It'll be that simple.

[Jim]

Bringing up this in light of the recent NYT editorial

 

Junking Science

 

Published: September 14, 2004

 

Endangered and Extinct Species

 

The Bush administration has from time to time found it convenient to distort science to serve political ends. The result is a purposeful confusion of scientific protocols in which "sound science" becomes whatever the administration says it is. In the short run, this is a tactic to override basic environmental protections in favor of industry. In the long run, it undermines the authority of science itself.

 

The latest example concerns the marbled murrelet, a small seabird listed as a threatened species that lives along the coast from Northern California up to the Aleutian Islands. Its habit of nesting high in the boughs of old-growth forests puts it squarely in the way of logging interests. Last year, the United States Fish and Wildlife Service, responding to a suit from the timber industry, authorized an independent review of the status of these birds. The panel determined that marbled murrelets, whose numbers continue to decline, needed ongoing federal protection. The health of the species as a whole, the report found, depends on protecting several genetically and behaviorally distinct populations of the bird. The Northwest regional office of Fish and Wildlife reached essentially the same conclusion, arguing that the birds in that area deserved protection as a distinct population.

 

Recently, however, the Bush administration concluded otherwise, that these murrelets were not distinct from their more abundant Canadian cousins. The administration did not lift protections for the bird. But it ordered a study of the bird across its entire range. This, in turn, could lead to a removal of protections for the bird and, ultimately, more logging in the old-growth forests that shelter it.

 

This administration seems to make no accommodation for anything besides humans' economic desires. Any creature in the way may find itself legislated, litigated or regulated out of existence.

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/14/opinion/14tue3.html

[Duchess]

Reminds me of this one...

 

http://www.salon.com/politics/comics/2002/04/13/caribou/index.html

 

[Jim]

I'm getting a headache.

 

Guaranteed: If the Bushies get back in they will push for taking salmon, spotted owl, and marbled murrelets off the Endangered Species list. They've been setting up the pieces and are just biding their time until after elections.

[Duchess]

These "Endangered Species" will be held accountable!!

[Fairweather]

Don't you have some Lynx hair to plant...er... I mean study somewhere, Duchess?

 

Maybe you'd feel better if you barbqued yourself some genetically indistinct species of salmon and ate it. You can even catch it yourself!...Legally!

 

JosephH,

you sound like one of those left-wingnuts who are actually hoping for a pandemic that will reduce the evil human hordes. ...Of course you and your offspring are always left out of this little fantasy of yours, eh?

Maybe a virus, bacteria, or prion that would only wipe out the "lesser people" huh?

 

"Virologist, Parasitologists, microbiologists.....tend to take a more wholistic view of the world.....". Have you ever met any of these people? Dude! RobBob is right....you're smokin too much of the Portland herb, and are suffering from a severe infection of the counter culture virus.

Edited September 16, 2004 by Fairweather