sk Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 sort of off topic, but a mental issue. I have found that I am just flat out pissed off that I can't seem to climb as hard or deal with the MAJOR aprouches that my male climbing partners can do. I never swing leads and and often times feel like a burden. But what I am comming to understand is that it is important to climb with people who are there to climb with me because they enjoy my company. So my suggestion would be to give yourself a break. Take the time to heal your spirit. PTSD is a big deal and takes time to over come. It will happen. Determination is good, but sometimes you can do yourself more harm than good if you push too far too fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 I think the advice above is pretty good. When I had started climbing, I was so scared of heights I'd be gripped 10' off the ground on a TR. I got over it by getting out on easier stuff and just getting off the ground with appropriate climbing partners. I also took a near-dead rope into a climbing gym one day and just started taking whippers until I understood that it was okay. It was mentally difficult, but incredibly helpful in getting beyond the mental block of falling. Every season, I have to 'get my head right' again, but it climbing is so damn much fun that it is worth the effort of moving past mental blocks. Encouraging the mentality of committment in other activities like mountain biking helps too, in addition to keeping you in better shape for those steep approaches. Climb On! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by shaky: I essentially shake on lead to some extent. This fear response can then affect me mentally, thus shutting me down with a cascadng effect of bad visions, defeatest thoughts, anger/frustration. I have a problem with the "bad visions" from time to time. I'm usually imagining a worst case scenario that's not very likely, but it can shut you down. It seems to help to try recognizing when you are doing this and instead of conjuring up all the possibilities, focus on positives gained from past experience like "this foothold is bomber, I could stand here all day", instead of "if this foot blows, I'm gonna fall" [ 08-19-2002, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: chucK ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by glen: ...just started taking whippers until I understood that it was okay. Taking whippers is never okay unless sport climbing. You should be afraid to fall, and learn to accept that fear (which will always be there) and use it to focus on the climbing at hand. There are plenty of classics out there on which you just don't want to fall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forrest_m Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 shaky – I got pretty shaky at one point, not because of a fall I took, but because of one I caught. My partner took about a 60 footer after zippering several pieces. It was the last good piece before the belay. I was haunted by this image of both of us being stripped off the side of the mountain. I not only lost faith in the ability of pro to hold a fall, but I doubted the whole system. I was determined to get back on the horse, though, so I kept climbing. I actually got up some pretty hard stuff in this period because I would NOT weight gear, no matter what. If everything was straightforward, I was fine, but when I ran into a cerebral section, I was terrified. What helped me eventually get over it was to learn how to not startle myself with the fear. What I mean is that I got into trouble because I would pretend not to be afraid until I got to a sticky spot and then suddenly the fear would hit me all at once. So I got into the habit of doing an analysis before every move, starting at the ground, of the entire system. “What happens if I come off here?” I slowly learned to compartmentalize: now I’m thinking about the system, I’m either satisfied or I fix the problem, add another piece, whatever. OK, now I’m making moves, concentrating wholly on climbing. Back and forth. I find I still revert to this on heady leads (“ok, forrest, think about the moves, not the gear”), but for a long time, it didn’t work for me unless I did it for the whole pitch. Kind of like bounce testing aid gear – if you do it every time, it adds a lot of security, but doesn’t really help your head if you start in the middle of a sketchy section. I also did a lot of Dru’s treatment – long easy routes with friends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allison Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 The right partners can make all of the difference. Some people can make you feel like it's OK to fail, and some can cut you down and impede progress. I had a really bad fall some years ago and have a lot of trouble on rock. I recently refused to climb something pretty easy, but with a loooong approach, and I was not made to feel like a criminal for failing. Some partners will help, and others will not. I hope a lot of ideas come out on this thread, as those of you who have climbed with me know, I've got a long way to go psychologically myself, and can use all the advice I can get too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 Ask yourself "Why do I climb" Then "What do I like most about climbing" Then "what can I do that will maximize the good feelings I get from climbing" Then do it... Also, try to use positive visualization before hand (seeing yourself cruising up climb and successfully on top feeling confident and in control) rather than negative viz (seeing yourself smashed to bloody pulp at foot of climb) can work to. And be prepared to bail and back-off a lot until you get your headspace back. helps to have a few supportive rope guns. also getting some of those quicklinks can help for bailing midway up stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 I have found smiling helps in grim spots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by iain: I have found smiling helps in grim spots. Makes them "grin" spots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 OMG Dru I think that should be mad into a poster or something. next thing you know, we will have"chicken soup for the climbers soul" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordop Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 "chicken soup for the climbers soul" = After cruishing an ankle in Smith that still leaves me occaisionally gimped, I have found that actually forcing yourself to fall on gear (on easy routes, which you know is going to hold) can restore a bit of confidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick_Sharpless Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 This sounds hokey but for me focusing in, and in, on what am I doing and how am I doing it - the foot, the hand, the tool, what's going on w/ my crampon, my tool, my hand, the rock, the ice, and NOT on a lot of unhelpful "what-if," or the 450' exposure (until I feel secure) helps a lot. It's hard to articulate, but I guess one of the things I value is that when I'm climbing, my next foot placement is a decision of a whole lot more consequence to me and the other person on the rope than most anything I will ever decide in a law practice - not to say my clients aen't important, but. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 eh, if it was for the climbers sole it would be chickenhead soup... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Dru: eh, if it was for the climbers sole it would be chickenhead soup... I was going to make that exact joke but managed to fight off the urge. Some of us, however, have gone clinical. -the sole chief chickenhead slinger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminal_Gravity Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 In my opinion the "falling is okay" or "fall on pro to learn to trust it" approach that several posters condon is sheer folly. (Sport exepted) I have taken over 20 trad falls, one grounder when a piece popped and I broke an ankle once when a piece held. Falling is NOT okay. Learn to NOT fall! The gear is a back-up. You, your focus, and your experience should be the primary part of climbing safely. Why do you think most fatal accidents happen on rappel...because gear fails, ussually because of human errors or improper use, but it fails. That is the one thing that you can count on. It is a fact of climbing that must be excepted. So, Shakey, here is my suggestion. It has worked for me. Free solo. Yes, you read it right and it might sound crazy. But if you do it right, take baby steps, climb known rock way way under your ability, solid and short at first, you will learn focus and confidence and you should develope the skill of mental calmness. When I now lead and place a solid piece I get this rush of "wow that is so cool..Protection; what a concept". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 a while ago I was having a bad time of finding the confidence to lead anything, not for any particular reason that I could discern. I was whiny and no fun. The cure I found was not far off what TG says ... I got out and climbed a few easy but runout and chossy alpine routes, new climbs that had no reputation to intimidate me. I had lots of fun and found back some of the joy I get out of climbing. Another thing I found that has given me more confidence in my climbing was just making myself physically stronger and fitter. Here's a question though: Who believes that the two choices in climbing partnership are either swing leads OR ropegun+burden? Can one climber be an equal partner even though they lead 0<=pitches<50% ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by fern: Here's a question though: Who believes that the two choices in climbing partnership are either swing leads OR ropegun+burden? Can one climber be an equal partner even though they lead 0<=pitches<50% ? Yes if they buy me beer afterwards or vice versa!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forrest_m Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 I don’t know that I’d go quite as far as endorsing Terminal G’s suggestion, but I agree that this business of “visualize success, don’t visualize the splat you’re going to make” didn’t work for me at all. It was just the reverse, I had to force myself to learn to think about everything that could go wrong and gain some measure of control by trying to address every concern I could think of. This resulted in a lot of 3-piece equalized gear placements for a while, but I eventually worked through it. This “engineering” approach really helped me figure out what I was afraid of (didn’t trust gear) and forced me to address it, while at the same time allowing me to compartmentalize that fear into manageable pieces. I don’t think it’s that useful to place a #3 camalot on a steep wall and jump on it – at least for me, my brain doesn’t accept that that experience is transferable to a yellow alien, etc. I don’t think you can talk your fear into going away, you have to learn to put limits around it, to stick it in a box, so that your specific fear doesn’t become generalized panic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 I find that fear is like the infamous pink elephant in that if someone says "DONT THINK ABOUT A PINK ELEPHANT!" immediately you do... if you are busy telling yourself "dont be scared dont be scared" you end up scared... I find distracting myself thinking about fun is the way to go... i tried like Forrest has said and also others, namely, "Imagine what can go wrong and minimize consequences of failure" more or less, but I found I always got mental images of extreme worst case scenario like "These 15 solid bolts will all break and I will splat on the ground if i dont do this move" wheras i think i was supposed to say "Oh a little fall, thats Ok I can deal" and feel confident making the move.... [ 08-19-2002, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Dru ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 I won't re-hash what's already been written, but will add my $.02: Looking at the whole of a route used to really intimidate me (still does if I let it). One of the things I love about climbing is that all I have to worry about and focus on is what's right in front of my hands and feet (to simplify it). I use this to break down the whole route into manageable parts. I focus on the pitches I am leading or on the 10' right in front of me. While looking up at a climb earlier this year, I asked my partner if the overall size intimidated him. He replied, "it's only 5.8." That didn't help me on that climb, but I have remembered it on climbs since and it does help. If it hasn't been mentioned before: aid climb on toprope; this will help you develop confidence in your gear placements. Greg W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinker Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 I take an approach somewhere in the middle. I trust my gear, but don't take intentional falls on it. I relax when on sections of the climb where a fall will likely be inconsequential, but am always analyzing where I will hit if I peel. Where the consequences of a fall would be dire (decking on ledge or ground, runout slab), I make a fully informed decision based on the risks and how I'm feeling that day. 9 times out of 10 that assessment helps me focus and concentrate on the task at hand. I focus on one or two moves at a time and work thru it. The other times back off the climb and go back to it another day. Coming back from a scare like that often takes time and lots of building back up to it. Work through it and it will mean all that much more to you in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 I agree to some extent with forest and tg. I think that fear is a natral part of climbing. It is learning to MANAGE the fear that is a LEARNED skill. Because I am just learning to lead, I am facing alot of thease issues. I definatly lead on things that I KNOW I can climb. Not verry spicey, true. But I am slowly gaining experience in a way that I find useful. I often lead when I climb with my best friend who just started climbing. It's comfortable, she climbs at my leading limit. It works out. I have learned that for me it is a real challenge to be lead dog. I have never realy had the experience of climbing with someone at the same limit I am at. interesting question fern Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminal_Gravity Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Greg W: If it hasn't been mentioned before: aid climb on toprope; this will help you develop confidence in your gear placements. Greg W I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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