Kerry in Vietnam

[Greg_W]

Not necessarily true, especially when the opposing party controls Congress. Case in point, Reagan promised the American people a tax break during his campaign. In order to get that break (a promise he was determined to uphold), he had to make a bunch of compromises with the Democratic-controlled Congress which led to a bunch of added spending.

[gotterdamerung]

in regards to my brother, I think he just got annoyed with the whole "you're going home next month, no wait, next month, no wait, next month, <repeat for 1.5 years>". Complete lack of organization and communication according to him. I don't think he would have minded if they one, got the assignment correct (they shipped all their helis and whatnot to serve in iraq. Once unpacked they decided they should go to afghanistan instead), or they just would've been more transparent (obviously you know more than a month out that you aren't going to be sending your troops home) and honest with their soldiers and plans. It might have hurt him more because his first child was born about 2 months after he shipped out.

 

This is the Swan Song of many soldiers. It is a hard life on friends and families. It brings out a cynicism that time doesn't seem to fade. It is one of those things that outsiders will never understand. It is a burden and an honor at the same time. He should be proud no matter what. He has earned my respect even though I've never met him.

[Gary_Yngve]

The same Republican goons who are trying to trash Kerry's military record now are the same ones who trashed McCain in the Republican primaries and who trashed Max Cleland (double-leg amputee Vietnam vet from GA) in his Senate campaign. I have absolutely no respect for those Republican goons.

[rbw1966]

I was responding to your calling Kerry a coward--not arguing military service as a prerequisite for political leadership, although thats not such a bad idea. Our choices in this election are not very satisfying (Dumb or Dumber?) but in this case I am voting for the person more likely to unite the world rather than alienate it.

 

Bush's response to the Taliban was just, in my opinion. The war in Iraq, however, was unjust. Furthermore the Bush administration engaged in a systematic, coordinated strategy of lies and misinformation to justify this war which alienated our allies, reduced our stature in the world, weakened our influence geo-politically and increased the threat of terrorism against Americans rather than reduce it.

 

For those reasons I am choosing what I perceive to be the lesser of two evils, Kerry.

[JoshK]

The same Republican goons who are trying to trash Kerry's military record now are the same ones who trashed McCain in the Republican primaries and who trashed Max Cleland (double-leg amputee Vietnam vet from GA) in his Senate campaign. I have absolutely no respect for those Republican goons.

 

Bingo. I don't think any of us here has the right to decide what Kerry did in vietnam, or if it was brave or not. Check out the accounts of the actions for which he won the silver and bronze stars. Those guys are more than willing to thank him, as are the majority of the people on his swift boat.

 

It is really hard to seperate what is truth and what is mud slinging in a presidential race. Add to it that the fact that this was 30 years ago, and under the fog of war.

 

One thing is clear to me...the guy DID servce his country. I personally believe he did it well, but with all the shit being slung one way or another, well, I guess I'll never know. But when I compare actually serving to what GW did...well,

[assmonkey]

Kerry signed up for multiple tours in 'Nam. More balls than I have. The critics should STFU. It's disrespectful, it's a smear campaign, and it's hurting the Bush-Cheney campaign more than it's helping.

 

The 'Pubs are fucking this campaign up and I am watching with glee.

 

THREE MORE MONTHS!

 

Dumbasses.

 

- a s s m n k e y

[cj001f]

Bush's response to the Taliban was just, in my opinion. The war in Iraq, however, was unjust. Furthermore the Bush administration engaged in a systematic, coordinated strategy of lies and misinformation to justify this war which alienated our allies, reduced our stature in the world, weakened our influence geo-politically and increased the threat of terrorism against Americans rather than reduce it.

 

Well said Rob!

[gotterdamerung]

I was responding to your calling Kerry a coward--not arguing military service as a prerequisite for political leadership, although thats not such a bad idea. Our choices in this election are not very satisfying (Dumb or Dumber?) but in this case I am voting for the person more likely to unite the world rather than alienate it.

 

Bush's response to the Taliban was just, in my opinion. The war in Iraq, however, was unjust. Furthermore the Bush administration engaged in a systematic, coordinated strategy of lies and misinformation to justify this war which alienated our allies, reduced our stature in the world, weakened our influence geo-politically and increased the threat of terrorism against Americans rather than reduce it.

 

For those reasons I am choosing what I perceive to be the lesser of two evils, Kerry.

 

I believe that Kerry will follow a program of systematic appeasement that in the long run will only harm us more. In the short term it will appear to be favorable because the Arab world will revert to it's duplicitous behavior. Groups like HAMAS, HIZbALLA, AL Qaeda, will continue to forment dischord amongst the Arabs through their vehicle of Zionism and systematic murders of westerners. The thing I don't understand is a westerners hatred of Israel. For one thing they are also a sovereign nation that has been subjected to a long history of Arab attacks and hatred. They have conquered land in open combat and feel little or no need to return it to the people who attacked them. They have followed an amazing policy of restraint because frankly they have the military capability to reduce Palestine to dust.

 

Having done an intense study of Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran during the past 14 months I would say that invading Iraq was a pretty damned sharp move. Play Risk sometime. Maybe it will make sense then.

[RobBob]

The only point with this thread is to note that I have been truly surprised and disappointed in what I've read about Kerry's real war experience. And the thing that makes his war tour important is that he's chosen to make it a key part of his politican persona.

 

I'm deeply dissatisfied with Bush. He's amassed Nazi types like Ashcroft, Wolfowitz, and Rumsfeld and let them run the country. His poor public speaking comes in part from the fact that he's not espousing his own ideas, I think, but instead is like Junior the Cheerleader.

 

All that being said, it appears that if I want "anyone other than Bush" to be elected, then I have to cast my vote for someone who is a charletan 'war hero.' Worse yet, he's chosen a slick, rich personal-injury lawyer as a running mate. This guy I've been tracking for some time (he's a senator from my state), and he has missed most voting as a freshman senator because he's focused almost entirely on his personal career aspirations. He's also raised a huge amount of contributions from trial lawyers, to whom he'll owe favors if Kerry's elected.

 

What a poor choice to have to make!

[RobBob]

I don't think any of us here has the right to decide what Kerry did in vietnam, or if it was brave or not. Check out the accounts of the actions for which he won the silver and bronze stars. Those guys are more than willing to thank him, as are the majority of the people on his swift boat.

 

Bullshit and bullshit. That's what this discussion is about. Go digging for yourself.

[Dru]

If this is your line of reasoning though shouldn't we simply ask every congressman, senator, ambassador, political lackey to sign their own sons and daughters up for combat duty as a prerequsite for their leadership?

 

thats what Michael Moore does in F 9/11 and they run away from him

[gotterdamerung]

I prefer to be a Hawk over a Dove. Our stature in the world would sharply increase if we would remove politics from our foreign policy regarding Iraq and simply get down to the business of wiping out the insurgency ruthlessly and without regard to world opinion. The world is like a bunch of sheep. When the wolves walk among them they become restless and begin to push the weaker ones into the path of the slaughter. It is the senseless dying of Americans every day because of shallow American committment that irks me more than anything.

 

Kerry will eventually have as much blood on his hands as Bush and Cheney and the initiative will be lost forever.

[b-rock]

I don't think any of us here has the right to decide what Kerry did in vietnam, or if it was brave or not. Check out the accounts of the actions for which he won the silver and bronze stars. Those guys are more than willing to thank him, as are the majority of the people on his swift boat.

 

Bullshit and bullshit. That's what this discussion is about. Go digging for yourself.

 

'Digging' only turns up accounts on both sides... So yes I think it all is politcally motivated. Were you there?

[JoshK]

I don't think any of us here has the right to decide what Kerry did in vietnam, or if it was brave or not. Check out the accounts of the actions for which he won the silver and bronze stars. Those guys are more than willing to thank him, as are the majority of the people on his swift boat.

 

Bullshit and bullshit. That's what this discussion is about. Go digging for yourself.

 

I have...obviously from my post I have, at a minimum, read his offical documents for recieving the stars. Why don't you eleborate on exactly *what* it is you don't like? I'm not arguing with you, but before you sling shit my way you might want to clarify exactly what we are arguing about.

[b-rock]

Play Risk sometime. Maybe it will make sense then.

 

Wonderful oversimplification, your views make sense to me now!

[gotterdamerung]

Having written or read many awards I would have to tell you that in some cases an award should be considered a work of aggrandized non-fiction. It has often been stated that the standard in which people were granted awards in WW2 was much higher than in Vietnam. Hell, I've heard tale of Bronze Stars here in Iraq being awarded nominally as end of tour ribbons.

[gotterdamerung]

Play Risk sometime. Maybe it will make sense then.

 

Wonderful oversimplification, your views make sense to me now!

 

Try reading between the lines sometimes. I think sometimes talking in baby talk might make sense to some of the posters on this website.

 

Good night. Thanks for the debate. Enjoy the clean, cool air there.

[rbw1966]

A lot of puffery goes into writing recommendations for awards.

[JoshK]

I certainly can't say if his awards, opr anyu others, are deserved but I can say one thing: he was out there getting shot at. Bush was home snorting. I think even an undecorated campaign in any war is more heroic than bush's actions.

[cj001f]

I prefer to be a Hawk over a Dove. Our stature in the world would sharply increase if we would remove politics from our foreign policy regarding Iraq and simply get down to the business of wiping out the insurgency ruthlessly and without regard to world opinion. The world is like a bunch of sheep. When the wolves walk among them they become restless and begin to push the weaker ones into the path of the slaughter. It is the senseless dying of Americans every day because of shallow American committment that irks me more than anything.

"War is to important to leave to the generals" - G. Clemenceau

 

Grung-

Your beginning to remind me of Curtis Lemay - to focused on winning the battle to realize your going to loose the war.

[b-rock]

Play Risk sometime. Maybe it will make sense then.

 

Wonderful oversimplification, your views make sense to me now!

 

Try reading between the lines sometimes. I think sometimes talking in baby talk might make sense to some of the posters on this website.

 

Good night. Thanks for the debate. Enjoy the clean, cool air there.

 

What? I read your post, and I understand what you are saying. I simply disagree, and your comment speaks volumes about how you address the situation.

 

That said, god speed, good night, come back home safe, and thanks for doing a tough job.

[RobBob]

Digging' only turns up accounts on both sides... So yes I think it all is politcally motivated. Were you there?

 

No I wasn't (I'm only 44). Two of my closest friends were. One did two long tours in the teams, and since he and his comrades rode in those swift boats, he began telling me the lowdown on Kerry months ago. (This guy happens to dislike Bush more than I do.) The other buddy was a Marine helo pilot, and his old gang has come up with the same chatter.

 

So I started looking at some of the testimony from Kerry's peers and superiors. A surprising number of these guys are stepping out and calling "bullshit." They have little to gain by doing so, and it would be easier and play better on them if they went along with the "war hero" dialog. I don't need to provide links to this stuff. Google it up yourselves.

 

The point JoshK chooses to miss is that Kerry's record now does matter, and he forces us to judge his record as part of his qualifications by playing the war hero.

[assmonkey]

A lot of puffery goes into writing recommendations for awards.

 

True enough. The military is just as political (maybe moreso) than any large organization. The brass submit the awards: You have to be on the brass' radar to even get your name submitted.

 

So, then, Kerry is guilty of being a brownnoser?

 

- a s s m n k e y

[cj001f]

The point JoshK chooses to miss is that Kerry's record now does matter, and he forces us to judge his record as part of his qualifications by playing the war hero.

 

What about the people who push Bush as a "Fighter Pilot"? I give Kerry credit for volunteering and serving - that's all. He ranks far higher than his opponents in my mind just for that.

 

These political debates crack me up - people finding facts to back up their opinion.

[JoshK]

Thanks CJ, exactly what i was gonna say. Rob, if you think Bush isn't guilty of trumpeting himself as "serving his country" you must be turning your head away.