The Ultimate Mountain Shoe

[daylward]

Now this may be foolish to post this here. Many people have told me I should patent this idea and sell it to some company and get royalties. I admit that would be nice, but from what I understand, it's a fair bit of work to get that sort of thing to happen, and the market for this product would be fairly limited, so I have never been quite convinced that it was worth it. But since I have not patented it, now that I'm posting it on a public web site, I guess I have to prepare myself for the possibility that some intrepid or nefareous soul will steal my idea, apply the proper marketing, and make millions without me getting a cent. Well, since I don't want to keep this a secret and I'd like to spread the fruits of my engineering genius to the masses, I only hope that if someone reads this and sees the possibility and has the ability to bring this to market, that they have the honor and ethics to contact me and respect me as the original inventor and we can work out a deal. Ok?

 

I'll keep this short. Well, maybe not super short - just not extremely verbose. Near the end of the 90's, I was tired of carrying heavy boots and sometimes even crampons up rock routes, just because I needed them for a bit of snow or ice on the approach or descent. My brain started working, and soon it came up with the idea of using track (or cross-country) running spikes as approach shoes. This in itself is not a new idea... Anatoli Boukreev (sp?) used them for certain phases of his Himalayan antics, and I'm sure others have as well. They work very fine on hard snow and even ice; in some ways better than crampons. Of course you can't front-point in them, but even ice up to 40 degrees can be managed with the help of an ice axe. They are very comfortable, extremely lightweight and nimble. Not quite as warm as plastic or leather boots, but that can be remedied by using neoprene or gore-tex socks. I have found that no other footwear is as comfortable, versatile, or allows me to move anywhere near as fast as spikes on most relatively low-angle snow/ice terrain. And wow, when you put them in your pack as you start up a rock climb, they just weigh nothing.

 

For alpine approaches, however, they have a big problem. Normally for snow you'll want long spikes in them, but those don't work so well on hard dirt or rocks. Here's where my invention comes in:

 

I've developed a sole that straps onto the outside of the shoe. The spikes embed in the sole and prevent it from slipping around, and the sole protects the spikes and provides cushion, traction, and support. The idea is to wear the soles on the trail and on rocky terrain, and pull them off when you get to the snow & ice, and repeat as necessary.

 

Here's me modeling them:

 

 

Here's how they fit together:

 

 

Here's them together, apart, and on the right there is an unfinished sole that shows the tread pattern:

 

 

To make them, I first use molds made out of Sculpy to form the sole out of 2-part castable urethane. Here's my set-up, with the jugs of urethane in the background:

 

 

After that, I take a cheap pair of flipflops, cut them down to the shape of the urethane sole, and taper the toe up a little using my grinding wheel. I sew the straps (using a single-strap configuration that starts from the big-toe side, under the toe and up the other side, folding back on itself and going under the arch of the foot and up by the ankle bone, then wrapping back under the heel), and put two fastex buckles on, one at the toe and the other around the ankle, leaving enough strap so they can be cinched down tight.

 

At this point, I press the spikes into the top of the midsole to leave marks where the spikes go. I drill holes big enough for plastic grommets to fit in - the grommets prevent the spikes from slicing through the cheap foam. I put the grommets in the holes and glue them there, and grind off the bottoms of the grommets so they're flush with the bottom of the foam.

 

To finish it off, I super-glue the strap to points on the bottom of the flip-flop foam midsole, then I glue the whole midsole to the urethane outsole, sandwitching the straps between. Finally, I wrap the flap of urethane sole over the top of the toe, to keep it from unpeeling.

 

Well, there you have it. There are some improvements to be made (mostly in terms of durability), but it works quite well. They're comfortable & cushy, good traction on rock and mud and snow. They have a narrow profile to save weight, so they're slightly less stable than your average running shoe, but not enough to be bothersome. I've been using them for several years very happily. Finally I was able to convince Forrest to try them, so I made a pair for him and we used them to go into the Pickets over 4th of July... 40 miles of trail definitely took their toll, but they did the trick, and it was so nice not to have to bring multiple pairs of shoes or heavy boots or crampons.

 

I'd love to hear your thoughts & suggestions. And I'd even be happy to make a pair or two for people who could really use them. But I'm not set up for huge volume production, so if that's what you think is needed, then just let me know and maybe we can go into business.

 

Dan

[iain]

way cool

 

thanks for sharing

[lost_arrow]

how was it hiking with these? did the stitching for the straps stay together? hot spots or weird wear from having the buckles over your toes or the side of your foot?

 

this is great!

[rhyang]

what do they actually weigh ?

[texplorer]

A good idea but don't they already have a similar design to yours out. You wear "spikeless" shoes and then instead of strapping on your soles they have strap on spike plates. So you can wear your lightweight shoes and carry very light spiked soles.

[daylward]

To answer some questions...

 

Re. Hiking with them:

For me, they are extremely comfortable the entire time, except once when I got a very small rock under my foot (which I quickly dispatched). No hot spots, no blisters, nothing. Forrest had a bit more of an issue with that, but I don't believe it stemmed from the placement of the buckles. The spike shoes he was wearing were of a different style; stiffer and less ergonimic - I think that was the main source of trouble for him. But even so, it didn't affect him much 'til right near the end.

 

Re. Stitching staying together:

There is no exposed stitching on the straps except for a little bit right next to one side of each Fastex buckle, an area that does not get much wear. I have had no problems with wear on the straps.

 

Re. golf shoes:

I don't know, wouldn't be surprised. I know Chad Kellogg uses javelin shoes, which are very similar to track spikes except they are a bit more durable (and heavier) and they have some spikes on the heel too. Chad checked out my system and was interested in me making some soles for him too, but it'll have to wait 'til he's back from K2.

 

Re. How much do they weigh:

Actually, I haven't weighed them. My only scale (the one you can see in the picture above next to the molds) has a 300g limit, and they definitely max that out. But they feel light. Maybe the shoes & soles together weigh just a bit more than a pair of standard Brooks running shoes.

 

Re. Strap-on spike plates:

That's a good idea, though I think different enough that it would be a different patent. That's more like a mini-crampon. I haven't seen the product you mention, but all the lightest-weight crampons I've seen (like in-step crampons) are significantly heavier than my system, and not nearly as nimble or stable. With track spikes, the spikes don't move around at all relative to the shoe, and I could imagine that a spike plate would at least move a little... I can't think of a way to attach it that would prevent any movement at all. When my sole is attached, the embedded spikes pretty much prevent it from moving around even when smearing on rocks, etc.

 

Dan

Edited June 12, 2006 by jon

[Stefan]

I like the idea, however I do not think the idea will sell.

 

Call me the devil's advocate.

 

I think strapping on mini crampons onto running shoes is the best idea. I don't think people will go out and buy spiked running shoes an then buy soles to go on the bottom of them. It allows for low versatility--unless you are a track runner. Not all shoes fit the same type of person. High versatility = regular running shoes with buying mini crampons points similar to spiked running shoes and strapped to the feet in the same manner you do.

 

It might work well for you, but I do not see it working for the market.

[willstrickland]

I once saw some XC shoes that were essentially a trail runner that would accept spikes. It would be like having spike receptacles in a pair of New Balance 800 series, or Adidad Trail Response or something. The midsole was a thin poly to give the spikes a base and to give you some support and protect from pointy rocks underfoot. It's been 8 or 10 years ago, so I don't even remember who made them.

 

I've considered using track spike several times. You can pick up a pair new for about $25. The things that have kept me from doing it:

 

1. The shoes have no spike receptacles in the heel area.

2. They tend to be very very thin nylon and would get trashed and leak like a sieve (although g-tex socks could work I suppose)

3. The soles tend to be really stiff, but the shoes don't really give much arch or torsional/lateral support.

 

I don't think it would cost you more than a couple of minutes to stop and scerw in the spikes when you needed them vs. strapping on the sole thing, and it would be lighter.

 

Baseball/football shoes meant for artificial turf, that use screw-ins might be the ticket. The turf shoes are made more like a running/tennis shoe with less stiffness in the forefoot than a grass shoe. You could use regular long track style spikes on them and have a good compromise...assuming you could find a brand with spike compatability.

 

Edited to say: Javeline shoes huh? Spikes in the heel you say? Beefier too....hmmmm, interestink, vedddy interestink.

Edited July 15, 2004 by willstrickland

[daylward]

More answers:

 

Stefan, I tend to agree with you that they aren't marketable in their current form. That is why I have resisted when people tell me I should patent them. I think very few people would consider buying a sole that they'd then have to make work with whatever running spike shoe they could find... different shoes have different spike patterns, etc., so they'd have to drill the holes themselves, and if they're going to go that far they may as well make the whole thing. I think the best hope it would have would be to sell a shoe & sole system together... In that format, it may be possible to sell it to more people.

 

Willstrickland, very good points, but I have given much thought to all the factors you bring up, and I tend to disagree with most of your conclusions. First, if you're approaching through any sort of mud whatsoever, the spike receptacles will fill up with mud and dirt and make it nearly impossible to screw in the spikes when you get to the snow.

 

Second, it takes about one minute to strap on the soles (much quicker than putting on a crampon), whereas it takes at least ten minutes to screw in all the spikes (I've done it many times), and you have to carry a tool with you and risk dropping one of the little things down between the boulders or into the heather, etc. So really, screwing and unscrewing spikes is not a feasable option in the field.

 

Third, I originally felt I ought to have spikes on the heel area, but in years of use I have not missed them one bit. In fact, I prefer to have a spike-free zone that I can step on if I have to cross some boulders in the middle of a snowfield. On the snow, the spikes only being on the front is not a hinderance at all. If I'm going uphill, all my weight is on my toes anyway. If I'm on the flat, it makes no difference. If I'm going downhill on soft snow, I can plunge step nicely with them. If I'm going downhill on ice, I just turn around and crab-walk backwards (all my weight on my toes), which I've found to be quite efficient.

 

Fourth, there are many different styles of track spikes, some with stiff soles and others with soft soles... the ones I found (pictured above) have worked wonderfully. They are cross-country spikes and actually have a lightweight & flexible foam midsole, so they are constructed more like a standard running shoe than most spikes. They support my arch (which isn't very high) well. In terms of torsional/lateral support, I prefer less. It gives more freedom of movement, and I can usually recover from ankle-rolls before they cause injury, unlike with heavy boots (indeed, the only times I've injured my ankle have been in heavy boots that theoretically have a lot of lateral support - now I've given up on them entirely, except for ice climbing). Of course everyone has different preferences and needs in terms of foot support, so I'm sure it won't be adequate for everyone. But I have absolutely no complaints in this department.

 

And finally, in terms of durability, there are no problems even with the lightest-weight spike shoes. On snow and ice, very little wear occurs (unless you step on your toe with a spike, which I've done once... ow!). I've walked miles on glacier with them, all over the Bugaboos, the Eldorado/Inspiration/McAlister glaciers, in the pickets, to Triumph, across the Enchantments in springtime 3 times, etc. and they just don't wear out on icy/snowy terrain. Where they would wear out is on boulder fields and bushwhacking, but the sole strapped to them protects them quite well. You can impregnate seam grip or aqua-seal in the lower part of the fabric of the shoe to add some durability if you want, but I haven't with mine and they're working great after 3 years of hard use. That's more than you can expect out of many approach shoes...

 

I hope I'm not sounding "contrarian, argumentative and defensive", I just intend to partke in constructive discussion!

[Dru]

The Charlet Spiky

 

 

Is a set of rubber straps with spikes that you can pull on to just about any shoe

[forrest_m]

Having used Dan's system for a while now, I can add another data point. Bottom line is that I think it's a clever invention, and very useful for a surprisingly wide range of circumstances, though there are still a few bugs to be tinkered on before I'm completely satisfied. They are truly awesome for things like clean break, wa. pass. routes, eldorado or stuart in a day, etc.. Most of the refinements I am playing with have to do long-distance comfort, not performance.

 

I have to admit that I was quite skeptical at first (and the first few versions definately had some issues), but I've been pretty impressed with the performance. OTOH, I definately seem to be better at "breaking" the system than Dan, we speculate because I have a more "heel dominant" style of walking as opposed to Dan's "toe dominant" style. Anyway, on to the specifics:

 

Pros: Very light. Very compact in the pack when you put rock shoes on. Quick to change modes - a huge advantage if you are changing back and forth from one medium to another. You can take them off, clip them to your pack straps with their own straps and keep walking in, like, 5 seconds. Putting them on is almost as fast. (This would be a major problem with individually screwing on 8 spikes onto each shoe). Very nimble on snow and ice, though the technique takes a little getting used to, it's like super french technique. Urethane rubber soles are pretty grippy on slabs, wet logs and the like.

 

Cons with the system: The biggest problem with the system is that you do most of your hiking with a "double sole." On trails, this is not much of an issue, but I find that traveling x-country, especially sidehilling, i really notice the fact that the soles are sticking to the ground, but the only think keeping my heel from sliding off the sole is a single 1/2" strap. The result was that on our pickets trip I got some pretty serious blisters on the outside of my heel, a new place for me! To be fair, these only developed on the last few miles of a 40+ mile weekend; in other trips, I've only noticed this as a minor discomfort rather than a big issue. I'm considering adding at least one more strap to spread the load out more.

 

A second issue is that since you are higher up, with a less than 100% connection between the shoe and sole, Dan and I both seemed prone to roll our ankles once or twice a day (we both have long-standing ankle issues, which seem to be mildly exacerbated - not caused - by the system). Finally, this is minor, the tread is rather shallow due to the molding process, which makes them a little slippery on mud, though even with the soles, they are pretty good on snow.

 

Cons with using track shoes: I wanted to separate these from Dan's invention, since obviously there are a lot of options out there. We both use cross-country shoes, which are a bit more beefy than a track spike designed for the 100 meter sprint. These lightweight shoes leak like a seive, but really, so do all lightweight hikers, and I think using G-tex or sim. socks is pretty much a necessity for any system that combines extended snow walking with tennis shoes. Overall durability doesn't seem to be a big issue, so far, since generally the shoes themselves aren't actually touching the ground. My biggest complaint is that it is hard to get a decent footbed to work in them (I have pretty high arches) because what padding there is is generally sewn into place and there isn't much volume to get anything else in there. But I'm working on it...

[willstrickland]

I hope I'm not sounding "contrarian, argumentative and defensive", I just intend to partke in constructive discussion!

 

Not at all. I think your replies effectively rebuffed my armchair speculation on potential problems

[gnibmilc]

i used a cheap pair of (flexible) ASIC cross country running shoes that accepted screw in spikes to climb the north ridge of stuart. no problem at all. but that climb is perfect for cheating since the distance and one time crossing on ice is well suited to this type of tactic. the dirt comes out easily if you just smack the shoe against a boulder. seems like the strap on is a better option for "on/off" applications and slightly more technical terrain and longer outings. the cross county shoe alone can allow brusing of the bottom of your foot and isn't too stable when scrambling.

 

nice concept.

[daylward]

The Charlet Spiky

 

 

Yeah I was intrigued when I first saw these, but the spikeys are so stubby that they're only good on bare ice and don't help much on snow.

[Dru]

but i would think a spiky with better spikes would be a better system than the double sole -platform shoe you have. lighter and better hiking, you just take the spikes off and roll them up.

[daylward]

You could be right. But that's not devoid of engineering difficulties either. If you were to have bigger spikes on the spiky, they'd have to have a sort of platform to prevent them from just bending the rubber all over the place when you stepped on them. And if you had such a platform, then the thin rubber may not be enough to hold it in place while you're running around on the ice, so the rubber might have to be thicker. Pretty soon, in order to achieve the performance already there in a spike shoe, you're getting pretty close to the weight of my soles, I would think...?

 

Another simple consideration was that I thought it would be easier to make soles that fit over spikes than the other way 'round, in my garage.

 

Dan

[Dru]

having walked around on avalanche debris in my caulk boots im not all that anxious to switch to your system.

[daylward]

Ok fine, but you're missing out!

[JoshK]

THat is definitely a novel idea. About the patent thing...if somebody comes out with a product like that, or tries to patent it, there is a clause for "prior art" if you can claim you had the idea first. A post on a BBS such as this would do nicely. It would probably be even better that way...let them bring them to market then sue the shit out of them.