Dru Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 hell even kissing can be dangerous nowadays news story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmuja Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Just felt like saying a few things in the wake of all the news.. Personally, I think there are too few mentors for too many new climbers - I'd like to find one myself - and there are too many "attitudes" from intermediate climbers who have thus far perhaps been "lucky" but take credit for it anyway thinking they are better than they might really be (btw-I'm not necessarily saying this about anyone on this board, really the people I've met are very willing to share info etc..).. Climbing is somewhat a dichotomy in that you need a bold ego to go forward and face your fears, but you also need the humbleness to back off when things arn't right for you at a particular time and place. You also need LOTS of information, both academic and experiential, something that takes courage, patients and TIME. To me it seems people now days want (NEED!) to push the limits right out of the gate and can be encouraged to do this by a kind of casual atmosphere where it seems like "every body is doing it". Seems to me that one could have the technical stuff down pretty quickly and be a physically gifted climber but still not quite be there with the more subtle decision making skills. The hardest thing, and the thing that probably can get you killed the fastest is poor judgement don't you think? People "underestimate". I think this is what really separates the old wise climbers from young bold types. You might live to become an old and wise climber but not without having or developing a good sense of judgement right? The learning curve is steep though. One thing I'm curious about is how many times you have been caught "flat footed" (while on a climb) on a slope or cliff, in the "gray zone" and decided to go forward any way? What I mean is, do you ever recall being in a situation where you felt like you wern't clear about what you were doing, or even KNEW that you were going against "the book" thing to do, but you went ahead anyway? I bet nearly everyone has been here, I also bet some never admit it. I find myself going up avy prone slopes a lot even after I dig a pit and find slab conditions. By luck I'm still here, but I know I need to learn more of the subtleties of snow pack because sometimes I find I'm going up in the "gray zone" just hoping nothing breaks..then later I think , "that was really dumb." Again, the learning curve is steep, and maybe good judgement is just something you are born with, not sure;-) I don't want to commit suicide in the mountains, but as it is now, my passion seems to bring with it a certain amount of risk... doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmuja Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 sorry, i looked over a couple other posts and I see I was being a bit redundant... doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Personally, I think there are too few mentors for too many new climbers - I'd like to find one myself maybe you should join the mounties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmuja Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 maybe you should join the mounties Tyring to avoid the rigidity of the MTY"S but I'm considering them or WAC or Boealps etc..- I've aready got most of the technical (rope, pro etc..) stuff going in the right direction atleast, I just think I need more experience in "grey zone" conditions to develope a better sense of judgement on things. Probly just need to do more climbing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceIceBaby Posted June 18, 2004 Author Share Posted June 18, 2004 Hypothetically speaking, In a team you expressing concern about conditions and personally reach a judgment of turning back based on you knowledge and experience then brought it to the team/partner and he/they solidly oppose it. your logic and gut feeling tells you to come down while you still can but they/he wont budge saying "you just too spooked" What do you do? Be “selfish” might save your ass but not their. Play along might reach your objective but you might not live to see that you were right all along Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drederek Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 That's whats tough about mentoring. Do you trust them implicitly? Does their "vote" count double? I'd rather be out with someone of equal experience. And reach a consensus on the objective dangers and how to address them. If ppl are not in on the decisionmaking process they are not climbing they are being guided. So as far as minimizing accidents I will try to survive the learning curve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 Quite often when someone says " I am looking for a mentor" they are looking for a GUIDE for free..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPaul_Hansen Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 Perhaps the readers/others on this thread should consider the old adage: "NEVER LET YOUR JUDGEMENT BE SWAYED BY DESIRE" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmuja Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 Quite often when someone says " I am looking for a mentor" they are looking for a GUIDE for free..... Guides cost $$$ Mentors cost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 Listen to that little voice in your head. It's wise. I've turned around on otherwise perfect days because of an overwhelming feeling of dread. Huh, I think I recall turning around on an otherwise perfect day because of an overwhelming desire for pancakes. Wise little voice in stomach Seriously though, that was a good list up there. I know a guy who would turn around on a perfectly good day because he thought there might be some girlies in the campground. In retrospect, he was WAY smarter than I ever realized. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashw_justin Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 Quite often when someone says " I am looking for a mentor" they are looking for a GUIDE for free..... It's just sad that climbing has become so commodified and commercialized that anybody with a little bit of experience thinks they need to get paid before they're willing to share any of it. But hey, that's what you get in a capitalist system... EVERYTHING is business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCNate Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 Quite often when someone says " I am looking for a mentor" they are looking for a GUIDE for free..... Or maybe a new friend that they can learn from. Its interesting how many accidents we have been discussing and lamenting and at the same time some people just seem to be against learning from each other. WTF? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 All too often the people i have encountered who have said " I am looking for a mentor" are sketchy to the point of being scary. These people are not just inexperienced so much as dangerously incompetent. Also, they have no concept of the climbing partnership as a two-way relationship. They are looking for an experienced climber to spend time with them with no regard for what the experienced climber will get out of it. These are the people who guides were made for. "The client is trying to kill the guide, the other clients, and himself". After being "mentored" by a succession of more-experienced dangerous incompentents for several years, the climber will become capable of endangering larger groups of people, eg. as a scoutmaster or member of a rural search and rescue team. I have climbed with climbers both way more and way less experienced with me and not once did i ever utter, or have uttered to, the mentor phrase. More than anything else if someone says to you " I am looking for a MENTOR!" that is a signal to get the hell out as soon as possible. For some reason people who get it in their heads that the solution to their problems is to find " a Mentor" are dangerous time bombs who are relatively incapable of becoming decent/safe/experienced climbers. I don't know why this is true, but it is. Forewarned is forearmed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeezix Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 1. Get an early start before everything starts melting. 2. Every member of the party is a leader and keeps on top of the routefinding. 3. Pay attention. 4. Exceed your limitations in measured increments. 5. Plan for contingencies. 6. Always sign the climbing register --let someone know where you're going, where your vehicle is, and when you expect to be out. 7. Don't dawdle under overhanging ice and snow. Move quickly through the area. 8. Bail if it doesn't feel right (I know it has already been said...it bears repeating). 9. Don't let people talk to you while you're belaying. Pay attention! 10. Practice crevasse rescue in real crevasses. Make sure every member of your party can set up a z-pully extrication system. 11. Wear a helmet while climbing and travelling through areas where rockfall is a possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randygoat Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Listen to your intuition. I don't know how many times I've listened to my 'little gremlin' and just backed off of a route just for a feeling.Sometimes I have to wrestle with the little bastard, and push myself to finish a lead or to commit to a move on a solo, but when he really screams, I head for the ground.No questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 If you are at that dangerous level of recently graduated newbie (i.e. 2-5 years climbing experience), then be extra careful. Climbers at this stage can tend to get a little cocky and cut corners, but often they don't yet know what they don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 (edited) Hypothetically speaking, In a team you expressing concern about conditions and personally reach a judgment of turning back based on you knowledge and experience then brought it to the team/partner and he/they solidly oppose it. your logic and gut feeling tells you to come down while you still can but they/he wont budge saying "you just too spooked" What do you do? Be “selfish” might save your ass but not their. Play along might reach your objective but you might not live to see that you were right all along In the situation where a partner was spooked by conditions and I wasn't, I'd explain WHY I wasn't spooked (the snow is solid and well-adhered, those clouds are just cirrus... whatever), but if after all of that my partner still said, "I wanna turn around". That would be it. I would never try to coerce someone into continuing a climb they were uncomfortable with. If that happened repeatedly, I probably wouldn't climb with that person in the future, but I would still turn around. Climbing in smaller groups (preferably as a pair) simplifies these discussions/decision making process. Big groups (e.g. Mountie's outing = clusterfuck). Soloing is REALLY simple. Edit: To directly answer the specific question. To minimize your chance of an accident while climbing, choose routes with higher fun quotients and lower objective danger quotients, even if those climbs aren't in the "Fifty Classics" or the cc.com flavor of the month or whatever. And that list that Skeezix put up is Edited June 22, 2004 by Alpinfox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 If you are at that dangerous level of recently graduated newbie (i.e. 2-5 years climbing experience), then be extra careful. Climbers at this stage can tend to get a little cocky and cut corners, but often they don't yet know what they don't know. (fingers in ears) I can't hear you! What? What's that? What did you say? I'm the funnest climber who's climbing the best? Dang it, you harshed my mellow, man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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