Oh, ya thanks....

[Marty]

Dane, sorry I almost forgot to answear your question again.

The crack at Chimney rock that I was talking about was Uni. The moves on the route were very good but we had just rapped off the ledge above and saw it and took a top rope burn. By no means did I free climb the route on gear so I was just tossing out the approx. 12a grade. You might also find these days that the grades have suffered some inflation since your time or you were climbing harder than you thought. Repeating lots of routes gives one a better idea of what others belive a certian grade is.

 

The Smokey on Fire isnt the crack that comes right out of the back of the overhang. Its the diagonal traversing rail.

 

Sorry if I didn't answear all the questions. So many threads I haven't kept track.

 

Dane, you and Keith made those holds on that route to the north end of the wall? Is that chopped a misspelled chipped?

 

Dane, I pulled the pins out of Magnum Force with my hands. What do you deem the proper pro now that they are gone? If you remember, now its about 50ft run out at the crux without those.

 

Also, nothing personal to anybody. Its just climbing.

[Dane]

Marty sadly you don't get it.

 

I guess the discussion isn't going to get us far. May be it will mean something to others who read this and climb in the area.

 

The problem is, and this is going to sound trite, but it is about "fear".

 

I climbed 5.12 and soloed 5.11 to see if I could actually do it. But you don't have to climb 5.9 or solo 5.6 to care about what happens at Dishman. All you have to do is climb to figure out what has happened at Dishman is wrong.

 

I stayed off things that scared me, like the Bachar-Yerian or Super Crack at Midnight. I lowered a number of climbs to my level by hanging on them and beating them to death. Nothing wrong with that.

 

Adding permanent additional pro to acknowledged climbs that were done years ago is FLATLY unacceptable by any modern standard, at any level.

 

Do I need to comment on the ethics of chopping holds or adding artificial holds to natural climbs? I'll make a statement on that when I get back to Dishman shortly. They'll all be gone when I am done.

 

No one can justify adding pro on long standing climbs and bolting trad routes as acceptable for any reason. The only reason I see is fear. Fear is a good thing right up to the point where you allow your fear to define how you treat our enviroment.

 

Dishman is still mine, just as much as it is the 12 year old flashing 5.15s, or yours Marty. But you don't get to damage it or deface it at your whim.

 

Again you are wrong on your rant. Slave labor was bolted by Pat. Hair of the Dog by Kurt. You are uneducated and clearly wrong thinking that the "beginner's" routes were lead and protected by the same people. They weren't. They were climbed in totally different styles. But neither would anyone climbing then come back and degrade routes already done. They didn't bolt mine and I didn't chop theirs once they had actually been climbed.

 

There have been 3 or 4 generations of climbers at Dishman by now. You aren't the first Marty. Stop acting like it.

 

You mention that you placed bolts on TOG and Firestone that were pounded over. You also admit that you started climbing there in the early '90s. Those same bolts were placed around the same time. So you just thought both climbs needed more pro because the climbs scared you?

 

WTF Marty? That defaced the climbs, not admitting that is again, BS. Easy enough to see the rub between you and Peterman from just that one instance. Haven't seen your guide book antics yet.

 

A couple of us were the first to climb at Dishman. We didn't add bolts we didn't need. We worked hard at it. We also had already been climbing longer when we discovered Dishman than you have been now. We ( but you can give credit to Larry Peterman) climbed hard enough and with enough boldnesss to do the routes that were there. Your generation was left with a legacy and IMO you and a bunch of dolts trashed it. Instead of just taking your situational ethics to places like Deep Creek and China Bend (which you have developed and have the right to do as you like no matter how screwed up your ideas are) you decided how you climbed should be how everyone climbed. That is too bad.

 

BTW you wanted to drive my car now you have to be resposible enough to take the wheel. Sorry lad, you aint got it yet and I wouldn't let you touch my horse.

 

You want your ethics to be left alone? Sorry that isn't going to happen. Just to be clear I DO have a serious beef with anyone who has defaced Dishman or any where I have climbed for that matter. I suspect now there are a good number of us that do.

 

"More climbing, less chipping and less ego"

[Dane]

The crack at Chimney rock that I was talking about was Uni. By no means did I free climb the route on gear so I was just tossing out the approx. 12a grade.

 

Ok, thanks. I did lead the route, on sight and with gear. Amoral Raiders, Tsunami, Kimmie and others are harder on Chimney. We rated UNI .11b FWIW.

 

Repeating lots of routes gives one a better idea of what others belive a certian grade is.

 

Ya, I repeated routes for 35 years so I figured that out a while ago.

 

Sorry if I didn't answer all the questions.

Thanks for taking the time. I appreciate it.

 

Dane, you and Keith made those holds on that route to the north end of the wall? Is that chopped a misspelled chipped?

 

I have never chipped a hold anywhwere. Never been with anyone doing so. What I said was I gave a TR to Keith on the north end of Dishman on the longest line just left of Wings. He actually climbed some of it...except where there where no holds obviously. I figured out what you were asking after rereading my comment. What I was saying is that if I or others had wanted to climb on the north wall years ago I could have easily done so myself by chipping holds to connect the line...I didn't. Neither did anyone else till you came along.

 

I pulled the pins out of Magnum Force with my hands.

 

I climbed Magnum Force a couple of times. The first with only hexs and tube chocks on the 2nd free ascent. The other times with Friends. Never placed or used a pin on Magnum Force, so you tell me. The bolt that Becky placed below the crux on the right wall, Roskelly actually stepped on an snapped off on a early aid ascent. I placed a total of one pin on Chimney...on Illusions and removed it on the second ascent with my fingers a year later. I used a couple of Zero TCUs in the crux after that.

 

If you remember, now its about 50ft run out at the crux without those.

 

You guys don't have large pro? 50' with no protection is hard to believe. My memory isn't that bad and the layback flake...to the chimney isn't that bad either. Crux is a little airy though

 

 

nothing personal to anybody. Its just climbing.

 

I'll second that

How about we get together over a beer or 2 and clean up Dishman?

Edited June 23, 2004 by Dane

[NYC007]

There is talk about graffiti, are you talking about the people who are destroying the rock by writing the name at the bottom of the route. I have seen this at dishman and deep creek.

[pindude]

Nice to see this thread heated up with some good, long overdue dialogue needed for this little wall called Dishman Hills, and the Spokane area in general.

 

Marty,

I knew retrobolting was happening out there for years (more than just 3 years ago), but I didn’t pay much attention to it. With this attention—thanks Dane for noticing the news from Marty’s website—it can be ignored no longer, and it’s time we reach a consensus and do what is right. Marty, I took it for granted that you and your buds knew what you were doing, and had contacted the first ascensionists—too bad you didn’t. Honestly, I don’t climb there much anymore, especially since I blew my shoulders out 3 years ago, but I’m getting stronger. You can bet I’ll be climbing more out there now. Dishman Hills lost a lot for me after the fire there in the early 90s, and since the new water tower went in, twice I was nearly dumped on by their water discharges right over the crag. Really disturbing is all the trash being dumped out on the road.

 

I spent some time out there climbing last October (last time I was there): did you notice much of the garbage—at least all that was on the trail in and at the base of the crag—got cleaned up?…Several of my buds and myself spent several hours on it. Some of the garbage was from climbers.

 

Not sure what exactly you mean by the wet paint…don’t use that as an excuse to deface the rock yourself. Ask Todd H: he knows what to do when we find wet paint out at any crag.

 

If you want the beta on cleaning graffiti, we got it. I’ve never found bums on the walk in, but there sure is much that can be done to clean up the dumped garbage near the parking.

 

Do you know who the property owner is? Have you ever spoken with them? I have, and I’m sure they would join us to clean that place up.

 

I’ll be blunt: Marty, you don’t represent the consensus of the climbing community, either locally, regionally, or nationally. Writing your route names in Sharpie marker at the base of routes, chipping, using tats or bolted-on holds, bolting near protectable cracks, and retrobolting lines without the first ascensionist’s blessing is NOT ethical, and is not tolerated. Dane IS very representative of the consensus of the climbing community.

 

You want to confirm consensus? Talk to the climbers OUTSIDE your insular circle, including the bumblies like me who’ve been around and still spend a lot of time at Minne, doing moderate stuff at the crags and sometimes in the alpine. Speak to the older climbers who have perspective. Still very active climbing around Spokane, and climbing hard, are Bob Loomis and Thom Nephew. John Roskelley still climbs, when he has time. I’m sure Curt Shannon would be glad to give his viewpoint, as well as Larry, Dave S., Steve Jeffries, Jay Koopsen, Dave Fulton and Rick LaBelle—if you’d listen to them. And don’t overlook Eminger, Kittel, Reames, Mitch Merriman, Todd and Jim. I don’t know if you’ve ever met Robert Ordner and Rusty Baille—they know not just what’s going on locally, but have strong national and international scope. Southern Mtn Guide has perspective, as does Micheal Lane at OP, and Mtn Gear and Paul Fish...I'm sure there are a lot more I'm leaving out.

 

Don't drag down the folks at W. 12 Sprague.

 

A lot of this is about respect: respect for the rock, respect for past, present and future climbers, respect for the community, and respect for self. In 10 or 20 years, and much longer, climbers WILL still recognize you and Dane for your contributions, and this current debate and resulting actions will be noted. Those who ignore history are the uncaring or illiterate.

 

Marty, I respect you for your climbing ability, that you work at a good and honest trade, and are married to an incredibly talented and intelligent woman. But I don’t respect you for the uncaring and disrespectful attitude you have shown for all posterity in your guidebook for Larry Peterman and Rick LaBelle and the local urban crags we are lucky to have in Spokane including Minne and Dishman Hills, and your defacement of the rock. We’re moving in the right direction with this dialogue, and I look forward to doing what we can to not only clean up DH, but ensure we have it and other crags for future climbers. I know if we work at this together, and we move toward what is consensus in the climbing community, that I would respect you for much more.

 

Steve Reynolds

[drater]

Go bouldering. Don't chip holds. You either send or you don't. No cutesy little terms for failure ( I almost pink-pantied it with a tight belay). If you get too run out, either send, eat shit and die, or downclimb. Pretty simple. Leaves more time for action. Less talk. Lots of fun.

 

Marty, Dane, 1st ascents are rad. We all love them. Thanks for the pioneering effort. Dane, support your cause, just make sure you send the hangers to Marty so he can go somewhere else and deface the rock since he was so polite to ask, twice.

 

Marty, I watched Chris Sharma warm up on 14a. Someone out there climbs easily at a level where you peak out. You make the decision to deny anyone else a fair chance at it when you alter the rock to make it more climbable. Pretty selfish for someone who has donated so much time and effort for the good of the climbing public with all your more moderate FA's around. Maybe you feel it's your right since you've given so much. It's your choice. Just not the right one.

 

Keep in mind this is coming from someone whose FA's all involve a rack or a bouldering pad & hopefully some spotters.

 

Just my opinion. Not worth any more or any less than anyone else. Maybe some more people will sound in & we can get a consensus.

 

 

[LUCKY]

Marty, Dane you both have valid points.

The route is more important than the individual that climbed it.

If you two would hook up and climb at dishman, take each climb seperately, discuss what is best for the crag, you would probably have a great day and the crag and climbers that climb there would benefit.

Think how good that beer would taste afterward

[RuMR]

what about more of a community discussion?????

[Dane]

you both have valid points.

 

Ok, say we do. I am going out to Exit 38 in the next few minutes. I am taking my drill and going to make a bunch of finger pocket climbs. Couple of the local projects at Little Si I am going to chop some holds on so I can lead them now. Going to dbl up the bolts so I can hang my way up them and never risk more than a 2" fall.

 

You cool with that Lucky?

Bet not.

 

Nothing valid about manufacturing routes, chipping holds and adding bolts. All of this is what Marty has done, is doing and continues to support. Wouldn't be tolerated on this side of the Cascades and I suspect you, Lucky, would be one of many guys wanting to tune his ass up about it.

 

The route is more important than the individual that climbed it

 

Partly right. The rock is more imortant than any route. The quaility of the route more important that any one climber.

[Marty]

Dane you said, "Instead of just taking your situational ethics to places like Deep Creek and China Bend (which you have developed and have the right to do as you like no matter how screwed up your ideas are) you decided how you climbed should be how everyone climbed. That is too bad."

This is exactly the problem I have with your traditional ethics at Dishman and you don't seem to see it. You think that your way of climibng a route is how the rest of the people who go to Dishman should have to climb it for eternity. I say B.S. I don't want to climb in your style. If I fall I don't want to hit the dirt or even risk it. This is for the mountains not the crag behind De Ja Vu. Whith a bolted line you have a choice of style. The real question is why do you force me to climb these routes in your style?

 

Ihate this cliche' but we'll have to agree to disagree. To me it's just rock. We blow it up daily to make highways, housing products etc. Its there for people to use so we should, and we do wether we like it or not. Take asphalt for instance.

 

Spokane chipping tally as I know it:

Dishman- 4 routes with a total of 6 chipped holds.

Limestone crags- 2 routes with total of 3 chipped holds

Deep Creek- 0

Post falls-0

Banks Lake-1 route with one chipped hold.(Steve, your friend Rick put this one up. It could have been Vince, I don't know. At any rate, Its a very good route anyhow)

Minne-0

Is chipping bad? Yes and no. Ive climbed chipped routes that were really good and Ive done some that were tasteless. In Spokane we have a small portion of rock. I say climb it and quite walking past it wishing that it wasn't blank for 15ft. Someone can always come back and fill the holes in later if they think its possible. Who knows Dane, you might inspire a 15b at Dish after you're finished with your hany work? Wouldn't I look silly.

Also Dane, since I don't want you to feel hypocritical after you get done filling in the chipped holds at Dishman, could you please fill in the ones at Banff, then go down to southern Idaho where I think all the routes are manufactured ,then keep going south to the limestone around Vegas. Theres a ton of those fake holds there. One of the crags is even nicknamed Mt. Chippingstone. Better head over to Yosemite and fix all the pin scars that probably help those two german guys free the routes on El Cap. Once you get done with the west you'll have to inspect the east. After that the real challenge begins: Europe. Take a boatload of cement there. And when you get back to Seattle, well you better take a closer look at Little Si. I suspect some Tomfoolery there too, but Im not sure you'll have to check.

 

Funny thing about the north end of Dishman is that there was a series of chipped holds there before me and my ilk showed up. It was a mystery to us but Keith did say something to the effect that he and Dane made them. This is an ancient foggy memory but you have vindicated yourself Dane. I know now that you aren't one of us.

Sharpie marker comes off easily with a touch of rubbing alcohol. Much easier than chalk. Mud works too.

I also think you guys still don't get the fact that I didn't retrobolt the place. At the point that this happened I had my fill of Dishman. My feeling was "let everbody drape their stuipid 30ft toprope webbing setup over the cliff and toprope". I'd redpointed the routes that I wanted before this.

I'm shouldering the responsibility of something I didn't do (which is fine). The people who retroed the crag are free thinking individuals. I might go there twice a year but some of these people, and others who aren't even involved in this conversation (innocent climbing bystanders), go to Dishman and clip bolts during the week. These are the people you are really hurting and not me. They're the ones that will be sorely disapointed to find out they got to start dragging in a rack (it will probably be the toprope set up). Ultimatly, it doesn't affect me but I do feel sorry for those folks. Dishman popularity will plummet when you guys get finished there. But you own the rights to the movie so shut it off. I've seen it before anyway.

 

Steve,

If you read the whole book you would have seen my thanks for the efforts of those who came before me. I don't personally know Larry I just thought it was stupid to chop bolts at Dishman. Im over it and could care less anymore. He's probaly mad at me now.

Rick on the other hand really pisses me off. That guy took the bolts out of several of Scott Millers routes for no paticular reason. He ran around like he owned the place but had only put in as many routes as I and other people I know did. He wanted to write a guide but you cant sell a guide with only 30routes in it now can you? He wanted my route info but he wouldn't give me his? That's Jackassery at its finest. Dane should go out there and chop all the bolts next to cracks too. There's a chipped line as well so bring your cement.

Steve, as far as being remembered 40 yrs from now you are fooling yourself. Here's the test (Assuming you've been to Smith Rocks) name your favorite 5 climbs there and tell me who did the F.A.? Can't right? And who cares anyway.

Steve, just as I don't know your circle you don't know mine. How do you figure you know consensus?

As far as graffitti removal Im not sure I liked your sandblasting method if this is the one that you speak of. It's a bit harsh on the rock. Puts years of wear on it in one blast (polished holds and faces). The graffitti seems to pop up later anyway. I do appreciate the effort. It seems like there should be some solvent out there that doesnt mess with the texture. My 2 cents. Oh please don't remove the rock 106.

 

Blowboarder, I doubt Sharma will visit Dishman. If he does I'll personally fill in the holes if he wants. I'm 99% positive that he won't be able to do it after that so will I be permitted to reopen the pockets so us mortals can have some routes to do?

 

W. 12 Sprauge sticker was in front of me when I was typing. My views are not theirs and they merely know me and I them. In fact, I suspect that they hate my ethics too but they just want my money.

 

Dane,

The routes with the pins was Sudden Impact not Magnum Force. There were two pins below the Greystoke ledge that I pulled out. there's no gear there now. I didn't mean that you hadn't repeated routes and didn't know grades. Im kind of a poor typist, sorry about any confusion.

[Dane]

Dane,

The routes with the pins was Sudden Impact not Magnum Force. There were two pins below the Greystoke ledge that I pulled out. There's no gear there now.

 

Marty thanks for the clarification on Sudden Impact. It was one of Randy Green's climbs, not mine. Although we did the second ascent and clipped his bugs and left them in place. Didn't look like much else would go in the seam. If pins came out I suspect RPs or steel nuts would go back in.

 

FWIW we also came close to blows over him nailing a crack that would take gear on Amoral Raiders. This isn't this first time I have had this discussion. The second was about Hair of the Dog. This the third.

 

You are right, I am not one of you. But you have no idea how closely we do think. 20 years ago our mind sets were even closer.

 

I suspect we have more in common than either of us might admit. I have been pretty hard on you here and on this issue. But nothing I have written here I wouldn't say to your face. You have offered you side of the story and taken credit for what you and others have done. More than most would do. I respect that. If I am going to chop/chip or burn your house down I'll tell you I am coming first.

 

You have stood up and taken responsibility for a lot of things that were done and defended your side of the issue very well. You are right, we can disagree. I also realise it wasn't you that retro bolted the stuff recently. I do remember Larry being really pissed about the extra bolts on his routes when you started climbing. No idea how he feels about it now. No idea what Keith did. Didn't climb much when he was around. But no, I didn't chip anything. But I was tempted, it is a nice line. I thought it better left for someone capable of actually climbing it.

 

You are right though they won't remember who did the FA...they will remember the POS climbs put up and that were then chopped. In the long run the rock will be important, the climbs and the climbers will be long forgotten.

 

The difference in our thinking is, you obviously think that you have the right to climb every piece of rock. I don't think that way and don't mind walking away from a climb that is beyond me. Lot more of those kind of climbs around these days. But you might try remembering if I and my buds believed as you do now there would be a lot more of our first ascents around and a lot less of yours today

 

It amazes me you don't see the end result of that.

 

I really thought you would do what I consider the stand up thing and lead the entire rock climbing community from the front. It is everyone's loss that you don't see the other side more clearly.

 

I'll be in Spokane tomorrow evening if you have time for a friendly beer. Send me a PM and I'll get you my cell #.

 

I'll even buy.

 

Others can vote your feelings here:

http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=PETEY&Number=365848&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=all&vc=1&fpart=1

 

 

[Dane]

Dishman 6/24/04

 

 

[Marty]

Dane, when you left me a message on my phone you forgot to leave your #. I scrolled through my recent calls and called back a 425 area code and left a message but I'm not sure it's you so call me back and leave your # if you see this before you get to town. I won't be able to meet you quys tonight because I'm headed out (like I do with 95% of my free time) to go climbing at Riggins (Ironically this is probably the chipping capitol of the world and I even ask what those guys were thinking sometimes)and won't be back till sunday night. I want to get your # so at least we can have a phone conversation and maybe hook up later.

 

Now for the pictures: Picture 1. Like I said, great crag, but extremely urban. This aint no Buggabo baby.

 

Picture 2: Funny thing about this gym hold is that I did the route without it cause I broke off the original litte footchip that was there. This new hold makes the crux much easier but whatever. Im not chopping it off cause I just don't really care. Someone who is less skilled than I obviously belives that they need it. Upon reaching the crag at first glance, and to the general public, the graffitti is far more of an eyesore. Take the hold off. They rated the route 12c (a bit soft in my opinion) so now maybe it will be true 12c.

 

Picture 3: This is a bolted on river rock. It replaces a red piece of webbing that everyone pulled through the crux on. The route is 11a and if I remember correctly this is the crux as well. I think we can all agree that this is ugly (the graffitti is still far more of a problem and will continue to be untill the world quits spinning). Could this be a case where the chipped pocket would have been better? Remember, all the other holds exist its just this one spot.

Now some of you are saying that it looks like there are some underclings below the bolt that you could jump to the jug up and left of the river rock. I think you may be right but in my estimation it would be about V11. That means somewhere in the range of 14a or so. Is the 14a climber going to enjoy this route as a great route? No, because the 5.10 climbing to and after the crux will seem an excercise in boredom and they will wish that they had just gone bouldering in the first place. However the 5.11 climber will love the route. It will be long and pumpy with no particularly difficult crux involved.

The red tat. There was never any hoopla with the red tat. Why is it that all you traditionally minded folk like webbing so much? Any trad climbing I've done there's always copious amounts of multicolored webbing around rocks, trees, etc. and you ignore this. Hypocrites.

After you guys get done with Dishman I want you to head up to Chimney with some disguised, Fixe brand chain and carabiner set ups so you can get rid of all the crappy webbing and have a descent belay as well. My heart weeps when my minds eye envisions the eysore that you all created. So many times my trad climbing experience has been ruined by pulling over the ledge to a rainbow nest of webbing. Boo hoo.

A bit ridiculous? Yeah, the whole thing is. Go tell the guy that bags your groceries or fixes your plumbing about these travesties that we have been discussing. He'll think your an idiot.

 

Dane, the reality of climbing is that the majority of climbers are not hardcore. Go to Smith Rocks and you won't be able find a bolted route 5.10 and below that isn't 3 deep. Go to 5.12 and you might wait in line. 5.13 (except that super popular one) you never wait. You are an extremist much like myself. Leave the people alone that climb at Dishman. They just want to go out after work, drink some beer, and climb a few pitches. None of them are out to repeat any daring feats of bold climbing or difficulty. I can accept that so why can't you?

 

One more thing. Mixed climbs (one pitch sport climb types) are the stupidest ethic ever. 10 bolts 2 cams. 10 cams 2 bolts. One or the other. Getting bent out of shape cause your mixed route got retroed makes no sense.

[Dane]

Marty,

Sorry I missed you while I was in Spokane.

Like I said in the message I was at the Elk for dinner. Thought you might drop in.

 

Saw and read your guide book last night.

 

We need to meet face to face and talk. I'll make sure that happens this summer.

 

All that said. I spent a hour or so @ Dishman last night and talked with locals on both sides. Gotta tell you dude...and I will to your face and anyone else involved.

 

You, Marty, your climbs at Dishman and the ethics and comments you supported in your guide book and the cast of idiots that vandalized Dishman are totally fucked up. No excuses, no more debate on Dishman or ethics or what should or should not be done.

 

BTDT and saw what what occured. It is unfucking believeable.

 

Only a fool would attempt to justify those actions in any context called climbing in person or on the Internet.

 

I'll post more pictures of the chipped holds, the line of bolts on obvious cracks and next to natural pro, the strings of bolts 3 feet apart on the new and old routes as I get time.

 

Past that I am done with the ethics discussion. But I am not done with the issue. See ya around.

 

 

[Marty]

Again Dane, the stuff that you are talking of you should find those people and take it up with them. I don't fully agree with all of it myself. If it were pristine wilderness climbing (say chimney) I might care. However, Did you miss the giant concrete water tower at the top of the crag? Steve said himself that his almost been discharged on twice by the thing. Why don't you go tear the water tower down too? Also, go tell the Appleway Toyota dealership to turn down their paging system. Nothing more distracting than listening to that while climbing. You should put this into perspective.

 

You read all of the book last night? I thought you might like it since you were only favorably spotlighted. Sorry, failed you again.

[slothrop]

One more thing. Mixed climbs (one pitch sport climb types) are the stupidest ethic ever. 10 bolts 2 cams. 10 cams 2 bolts. One or the other. Getting bent out of shape cause your mixed route got retroed makes no sense.

 

No, I think climbs like this can be examples of responsible bolting. Why not use the available natural features for protection when it's available? I'll clip bolts when they're there, but it offends my sense of aesthetics to see them next to cracks. It's as if the bolting party had no imagination and no respect for the natural line.

 

I don't know where you get the idea that a climb has to be either fully bolted or totally free from bolts. I say you should use the kind of protection appropriate to the features of the rock. The "trad" vs. "sport" distinction is stupid. If you're too lazy to bring a rack (10 pounds on your back for the 5 minute approach is good training), that doesn't give you the right to bring the climb down to your level through unnecessary bolting. Just climb something else, something you don't need gear for. Or go to the gym.

[Dane]

You should put this into perspective...the stuff that you are talking of you should find those people and take it up with them.

 

I am here with you and will with the others in time. Your guide, your climbs, your lack of ethics, your chipped holds, your Sharpe. PM their names and numbers and I'll call them.

 

Dishman 6/24/04

 

 

 

You read all of the book last night? I thought you might like it since you were only favorably spotlighted. Sorry, failed you again.

 

Marty some of what was written and climbed was exceptional. Some of both are tripe and insulting to me and a good many others in the community as a whole. It isn't the first time you have heard that. As far as how you viewed my contribution to the community, no question you actually gave me more credit than I deserved. Only because we hadn't yet met I suspect

 

What Marty's and his buds consider and treat like a trash heap, Dishman 06/24/04

[jon]

One idea I completely disagree with is the idea of being able to "bring the rock down" to the level of surroundings. Just because there isn't a wilderness feeling doesn't mean you are free to desecrate the rock how ever you please, whether it is with bolts or chipped holds or plastic holds. I also don't believe with the idea of chipping holds or gluing holds in, because all you are doing is bringing the route down to your level. I think in Off White's case what he did was fine, because first it is his own property, and second because it is the remnants of a quarry. A couple years ago I visited a newly developed area with one of the route developers and was disgusted by how contrived everything was. They had gone up with crowbars and cleaned the route to hell, launching off refrigerator sized blocks, so they could set routes on this wall. In my mind what they did was chipping holds, no matter how big the chips were, and to be honest didn't resemble my idea of climbing. It pretty much boils down to whether the wall should be climbed or not, and that should be up to the rock and not the climber, because maybe it's not ready to be climbed for another couple thousand years.

[dberdinka]

Looks like a sweet crag!

 

Your attempts to have a debate on climbing ethics with Marty seems like a pretty frivoulous indevour when all he has to say is "We'll do what ever we want, so F*&k yourself!"

 

Dane do what you (and 99.999% of us) know is right.

[slothrop]

Word to that, jon.

 

Even crappy little crags can be nice natural getaways. That's partly why you're there, right? To get away from your regular life and do something fun/relaxing/challenging in a pleasant setting. It's sad to desecrate a place like that, even if it's not pristine. Beautiful things don't have to be perfect.

 

Just show a little respect and you can make the most of what every climbing area has to offer. Trashing someplace just because it's a little shabby already is like kicking a guy who's down. Weak. Why not clean things up instead?

[pindude]

I’d rather climb and be constructive than have to sit at my keyboard and screen. Marty, if your comments weren’t directed to me by name, I wouldn’t be answering them. But you leave me no choice, because they demand correction. You asked for it, you got it.

 

Steve,

If you read the whole book you would have seen my thanks for the efforts of those who came before me.

 

You don’t seem to realize that one of the great purposes of providing a climbing guidebook is precisely to document history.

 

I don't personally know Larry I just thought it was stupid to chop bolts at Dishman. Im over it and could care less anymore. He's probaly mad at me now.

 

So you personally don’t know Larry, nor made the effort, but you saw fit to roundly diss him in your book: That speaks volumes. Is it ever too late to make amends?

 

Rick on the other hand really pisses me off. That guy took the bolts out of several of Scott Millers routes for no paticular reason.

 

Obviously you didn’t do much constructive speaking with Rick either, who is another honest and honorable person. You really should get the first-hand info straight from Rick before spouting off to everyone in the world. However, my understanding is that Scott’s bolted routes were unclimbable (and among the first routes he ever tried to put in—I take it he didn’t know what he was doing and never worked the route before drilling?), and he put them in with his girlfriend. I don’t believe it was several routes, more like one or two. Rick called Scott, reached his girlfriend instead, who gave him permission to remove the hangers. How’s that for particular reason?

 

He ran around like he owned the place but had only put in as many routes as I and other people I know did. He wanted to write a guide but you cant sell a guide with only 30routes in it now can you?

 

He’s personally established way more than 30 routes, more than all other first ascensionists combined, as far as the Banks Lake area is concerned: you’ll see when the guidebook comes out.

 

Rick’s not printing a guidebook to make money—you likely know INW guidebook authors aren’t raking in the dough . From conversations I’ve had, the book will be more to chronicle the climbs for current and future climbers, in the name of…history! Rick’s actually pretty altruistic—he’s done a lot to introduce and teach climbing to many, including showing his routes to virtually anyone who knows him. I’m sure you didn’t know he even gives away to certain others the FA’s on routes he has spent $ and literally worked hours on to install—good routes he could easily do the FA’s on his own.

 

He wanted my route info but he wouldn't give me his?

 

You yourself could probably answer this better, but likely several things are going on here including quite possibly the project you stole and wrote your own route name at the base with Sharpie marker.

 

That's Jackassery at its finest.

 

No comment.

 

Dane should go out there and chop all the bolts next to cracks too. There's a chipped line as well so bring your cement.

 

Marty, you know the granitic gneiss of Banks Lake is much more friable than the younger and much more pristine (now once pristine) granite of Dishman. For those of you who know Frenchman Coulee, the Banks Lake area granite lies underneath and is older than the basalt layer that exists around Vantage. At least as much as the basalt routes around Vantage, most routes in the Banks area require some work to clean dangerous, loose rock (in addition to great amounts of moss, lichen, and dirt) before they can be climbed…and even then one must always climb with great caution there. I’ve trundled more than one BIG rock on routes others thought were clean.

 

“Chipped line?” I’d be glad to show Dane the climbs out there, including the climb you claim is chipped. Since you don’t know Rick well, I can assure you he would never chip a route to make a hold. For the climb in question, Rick encountered a loose flake he didn’t want to come off on anyone climbing the route, and in his efforts to make it safe he used a drill to help pry it off—the resulting scar was inadvertent, and certainly wasn’t meant as a hold.

 

Steve, as far as being remembered 40 yrs from now you are fooling yourself. Here's the test (Assuming you've been to Smith Rocks) name your favorite 5 climbs there and tell me who did the F.A.? Can't right? And who cares anyway.

 

I and many others do. When doing routes, I almost always make a point of checking out who did the FA, when, and in what style. If possible, I even talk to them! One of the great benefits of the climbing community, at least currently. Our sport is a young one, but a lot of our pioneers are dying. Even though I don’t have the athletic ability and skill level of you Marty, I’m grateful for and have had the great satisfaction of spending time—including even climbing—with a few of the folks considered greats in our community. I’m not sure if there is another sport where this is possible to the extent we have in climbing.

 

Steve, just as I don't know your circle you don't know mine.

 

I’m sure we don’t know each other’s friends well, but we likely know at least a few. Truthfully, I’d like to know your circle better. It would be good for all of us.

 

How do you figure you know consensus?

 

I talk to plenty enough climbers, not just INW folks, who run the complete gamut of skill levels and experience. I feel fortunate my circle isn’t a little one. The climbing community—on the local, regional, and national/international levels—are a lot more supportive and a lot less divisive than it might seem by this discussion, at least in its early stages. Consensus on this board is becoming obvious, and you’d get a better idea of the local consensus if you’d talk to folks at Minne, PF, and other places that don’t have the concentration of harder climbs you’re used to like at Riggins, Metaline, China Bend.

 

As far as graffitti removal Im not sure I liked your sandblasting method if this is the one that you speak of. It's a bit harsh on the rock. Puts years of wear on it in one blast (polished holds and faces). The graffitti seems to pop up later anyway. I do appreciate the effort. It seems like there should be some solvent out there that doesnt mess with the texture. My 2 cents. Oh please don't remove the rock 106.

 

In cleaning graffiti, changing the texture of the rock was/is always of great concern. I’ve researched and talked to a few folks about it, and tried to do my best. We’ve tried several different types of chemicals, from commercial mixes made specifically for cleaning graffiti, to industrial stuff including acids, but nothing worked on the granite of Minne. Still, we used the finest sand possible and took care in doing as little damage as possible. Yes, it takes the patina off the rock, but I’ve been told by at least one geologist that the rock will return to its slightly darker original colors. If there are better methods, including chemicals, I’m open to them. As far as new graffiti, it is at a minimum and is mainly on the south end of the crag next to the road where there isn’t any real climbing. The rate of new graffiti popping up at Minne very markedly dropped off after our initial cleanup efforts two years ago. With that cleanup, Minne once again belongs more to climbers and the general community.

 

Re. Rock 106 graffiti, I agree. Unfortunately someone else already graffitied over it, but I think it can be saved with a little work.

 

Marty, you’re welcome to go on saying you won’t be remembered 40 years or more from now, but you will. You’re making history right now with your statements on the rock, in your guidebook, and on the web including here. You can’t distance yourself from the other Dishman Hill vandals with your own chipping, graffiti, etc., and your willingness to speak for them. The consensus is taking obvious shape, and one of the big questions is how much you and the other vandals are out or in as far as the future is concerned.

 

I just saw first hand what you and your buds have done, and it’s a crying shame. It’s much worse than I ever expected, with much of the desecration occurring just this spring. Sure there’s a water tower on top, sure you can hear the Appleway dealership paging system, but that’s a lot less urbanity than exists at Minne. If Sharma did come through Spokane, I’d be glad to show him the DH wall as it exists now—think he’d be happy with it?

 

Your rationalizations for the desecration of DH are inexcusable. We already have the protected resource of the Dishman Hills Natural Area immediately adjacent to this great little crag. Ever wondered how much further effort it would take to protect the DH wall for future climbers? Instead, you and your buds treat it like it should be blown up like highway rock. I think we’re too nice here in Spokane, and it’s obvious our climbing community is small—thus the reason why you were able to try and get away with this shit up to now. If DH were transported to the Puget Sound area, you can bet the outcry would have already been made and the consensus established long ago. If this was happening in England, even in the mined but exceptionally climbable quarries, the guilty would already have their balls cut off and hanging in the nearest pub. It’s not what I’m advocating, not at all. You and your vandal friends still have the opportunity to redeem yourselves, but only if the bullshit stops right now.

 

Among many things you don’t understand, but of incredibly obvious and great importance, is that future access to Dishman Hills is in great jeopardy because of what you and the others have done . Way to go. It’s private property, but you don’t even know or care who the owner is! I can’t believe I even have to spell this out for you, the author of a guidebook!

 

As far as 12 W. Sprague is concerned, you know they’re great folks, and they’re not just out to make a buck—they’re also here for the support of the community. I’ve experienced it first-hand, and am thankful for it.

 

OK, so we go forward from here, and the direction is becoming more clear, I hope, for you and your friends.

 

Steve Reynolds

[RuMR]

One more thing. Mixed climbs (one pitch sport climb types) are the stupidest ethic ever. 10 bolts 2 cams. 10 cams 2 bolts. One or the other. Getting bent out of shape cause your mixed route got retroed makes no sense.

 

 

No, I think climbs like this can be examples of responsible bolting. Why not use the available natural features for protection when it's available? I'll clip bolts when they're there, but it offends my sense of aesthetics to see them next to cracks. It's as if the bolting party had no imagination and no respect for the natural line.

 

I don't know where you get the idea that a climb has to be either fully bolted or totally free from bolts. I say you should use the kind of protection appropriate to the features of the rock. The "trad" vs. "sport" distinction is stupid. If you're too lazy to bring a rack (10 pounds on your back for the 5 minute approach is good training), that doesn't give you the right to bring the climb down to your level through unnecessary bolting. Just climb something else, something you don't need gear for. Or go to the gym.

Sorry...ten QD's and two cams is STUPID...what it will lead to is someone walking by and assuming the route is fully fixed and getting into trouble...either go all sport or go all trad...

[MervGriffin]

It also sucks now cause I just show up after work with a handful of draws and climb. I miss those days of hiking to the top, and finding that special tree or rock to drape 30 ft of webbing over the edge for my toprope set up.

 

It seems to me that there wouldn't be much of a problem if you had stuck to the top-roping. Perhaps it would be better if the norm at short-crags such as this was: if you can't lead it clean, then top-rope it. This could apply to all kinds of defiled areas including such places as Vantage and Exit 38. Some nicely maintained top-rope anchors might be a small price to pay for long-term preservation of the crags.

[tradgirl]

The reality is this ALL boils down to respect. Respect for one's self, respect for other people, and most of all respect for nature. One man's pile of trash (or rock) is another man's treasure. I don't see one ounce of respect coming from those who believe this is all okay.These beliefs are what will be the downfall of climbing. Loss of access and ruined areas will be all we have left....

[RuMR]

Much of Marty's position is making some of the routes accessible to moderate climbers...wouldn't that be a form of "respect"????