Access warning

[olyclimber]

Stoppard yer BLTing

[JayB]

This notion that eliminating sport routes will eliminate crowds, and thereby eliminate or mitigate climbers' impact on the land surrounding the said climbs on its own cannot be sustained in the face of experience.

 

Ever been to Eldo? The Gunks? The Valley? RMNP? Indian Creek?J-Tree? Hardly bastions of sport climbing, and at most of these places, the sport routes that do exist are neglected in favor of moderate trad-routes that are within the range of the average weekend climber. Climber impact tends to be greatest where - surprise - the good climbing is, be it sport, trad, bouldering or any combination thereof. The bottom line is that there are more people out there climbing today than ever before, that's not going to change - and while I am in favor of preserving routes in the manner that they were originally lead, not bolting next to cracks, etc, etc, etc - pining for a return to the days of yore and cursing the realities of the present will do nothing to limit the numbers of climbers out there. The name of the game is working together in an organized fashion so that we are an effective constituency that land managers will listen to, and working with land managers towards common goals whenever possible. That usually means taking concrete actions to mitigate our impact on the landscape surrounding the rock.

 

And this business about the number of climbers increasing solely because bolts has lowered the bar is another tired old canard that should be put to rest. There's no denying that trad climbing is a different game, but we are deluding ourselves if we think that anyone who is reasonably fit and intelligent enough to figure out how to put blocks together couldn't make it to the top of GNS if they wanted to. It's just not that hard. I've seen it happen. For most people, the most daunting aspect of trad climbing isn't using the gear, its coughing up the dough necessary to get their hands on a reasonable rack. As such, it's hardly the preserve of the few and the bold.

 

Another reality which undercuts the notion that the only thing driving increased climber numbers is the bolt-assisted lowering of the bar is the steady increase in the number of ice climbers. Yeah - the equipment's become better, but the essential nature of the activity hasn't changed, and if anything - the trend has been towards higher standards rather than lower ones. Direct aid was a staple of most first ascents in the 70s, but quickly fell out of favor, as have tethers, and now the climbers at the leading edge are even eschewing leashes altogether. Hardly evidence of declining boldness brought on by the hoards of soft, risk averse sods who sought out climbing because they had no appetite for risk.

[marylou]

The Wilderness rules are already broken with the Rangers explicit permission already! The trail crews take chain saws into the wilderness to cut trails. My dad is on trail crew and those old farts haul the chain saws and get helicopter support all the time to create trails. That is much more damaging that someone drilling some bolts.

 

Many Wilderness areas also have roads leading into the boundries of the park.

 

Wilderness areas need to be truely wilderness areas. Banning a bolts then paving a road into the park is bullshit. Bolted routes are lower impact than most trails let alone roads.

 

If what you are saying is true, the local land mgrs are probably abusing the Act. There is some piece about making a provisional exception for using chainsaws for TM in cases of extreme blowdown, unfortunately I don't know the details of this provision. If you could be so kind as to point up some specific instances, preferably with dates and locations, I'd be more than happy to do the homework both on the trail work you are speaking of, and of the rule for exception with regards to trail work.

 

Also, I can't say I've ever seen a proper road that you could actually still drive on in a Wilderness. Where are those? For clarification, Wilderness areas are not the same as Parks. They can exist in Parks, but don't have to be.

 

As far as helicopter work, it's allowed for use by the FS for certain types of maintenance like toilet cleaning and bridge work, but not for private use.

 

This whole discussion would go foward with a lot more clarity if we could just discuss the Wilderness aspect of things and leave the overall bolt war for another day.

[Dru]

Warren hollinger made a good point at his slide show a few years ago that in "real" wilderness - Baffin Island, Patagonia, Cirque of the Unclimbables, Ruth Gorge, Karakoram etc - there are no rules about access or boltinng or shitting in a bag, and there are bolts wherever the first ascent parties felt like placing them, not where their use is legislated.

[pope]

This notion that eliminating sport routes will eliminate crowds, and thereby eliminate or mitigate climbers' impact on the land surrounding the said climbs on its own cannot be sustained in the face of experience.

 

Ever been to Eldo? The Gunks? The Valley? RMNP? Indian Creek?J-Tree? Hardly bastions of sport climbing, and at most of these places, the sport routes that do exist are neglected in favor of moderate trad-routes that are within the range of the average weekend climber.

Have you convinced yourself that bolts haven't brought crowds to Vantage and I-90? It's too bad mental gymnastics is not an Olympic sport.

 

The name of the game is working together in an organized fashion so that we are an effective constituency that land managers will listen to, and working with land managers towards common goals whenever possible. That usually means taking concrete actions to mitigate our impact on the landscape surrounding the rock.

 

From what I'm reading, local land managers and conservation groups have the opinion that climbers' impacts can be noticed in both the horizontal AND the vertical.

[chucK]

Should guidebooks be banned?

 

Surely guidebooks are at least as responsible as the existence of bolts for the number of climbers visiting overused crags. They certainly make the climbing easier (i.e. "dumb it down").

 

The elimination of guidebooks would probably help mitigate the effect of climbers at Eldo, The Gunks, The Valley, RMNP, Indian Creek, J-Tree, Washington Pass, Index, Squamish. More?

[Off_White]

Pope said:

From what I'm reading, local land managers and conservation groups have the opinion that climbers' impacts can be noticed in both the horizontal AND the vertical.

 

What is it you're reading? What I've heard is that the ALPS fellow doesn't care about the bolts, he's pissed about the trail. I think JayB's post was pretty spot on, and your efforts to stuff the rabbit back in the hat are futile. If most of the folks who started climbing since you did were drawn into the sport by the convience of bolts, why is it harder than ever to get on the classic free grade IV free climbs in Yosemite? Why can I no longer spend three days in Boston Basin without seeing anyone? I once climbed the complete North Ridge of Stuart in late August and didn't see anyone besides my partner from the time we left the car until we got back to it; The steady traffic up there now that makes a recurrence of that trip unlikely is not due to bolts. You gotta figure out how to accomodate the greater volume of people who climb now, and accept the fact that most of them derive as much pleasure from the sport as you do, and are just as entitled to the activity. Though I find myself arguing on the pro-bolt side, I'm not of the "anything goes" ilk, and I thought AlpineK's list of likes and dislikes pretty accurately reflected my feelings on the matter. You're not going to get that list of ground rules enforced by the Forest Service though, they see you in the same boat with the developers of Infinte Bliss. It's not your ethics I disagree with, it's the way you want to use them to achieve a selfish goal of denying others the rewards they find in climbing that I find so objectionable.

[pope]

What is it you're reading? What I've heard is that the ALPS fellow doesn't care about the bolts, he's pissed about the trail. I think JayB's post was pretty spot on, and your efforts to stuff the rabbit back in the hat are futile. If most of the folks who started climbing since you did were drawn into the sport by the convience of bolts, why is it harder than ever to get on the classic free grade IV free climbs in Yosemite? Why can I no longer spend three days in Boston Basin without seeing anyone? I once climbed the complete North Ridge of Stuart in late August and didn't see anyone besides my partner from the time we left the car until we got back to it; The steady traffic up there now that makes a recurrence of that trip unlikely is not due to bolts. You gotta figure out how to accomodate the greater volume of people who climb now, and accept the fact that most of them derive as much pleasure from the sport as you do, and are just as entitled to the activity. Though I find myself arguing on the pro-bolt side, I'm not of the "anything goes" ilk, and I thought AlpineK's list of likes and dislikes pretty accurately reflected my feelings on the matter. You're not going to get that list of ground rules enforced by the Forest Service though, they see you in the same boat with the developers of Infinte Bliss. It's not your ethics I disagree with, it's the way you want to use them to achieve a selfish goal of denying others the rewards they find in climbing that I find so objectionable.

 

Listen to yourself. Get a grip! I really don't care whether somebody else has a great experience of discovers something about themselves if they need to make major adjustments to wilderness the way they find it, and the way I expect to find it. Outside of that I encourage everybody to "send the sickness". Really. Hangdog it up, baby. Have a Mountain Dew. Sky's the limit.

 

Anyway, I'm not sure you and Jay have the complete picture the current controversy.

[Off_White]

Anyway, I'm not sure you and Jay have the complete picture the current controversy.

 

Yeah, that's possible, my crystal ball is in the shop and sunspots are playing havoc with my wiretaps.

[JayB]

This notion that eliminating sport routes will eliminate crowds, and thereby eliminate or mitigate climbers' impact on the land surrounding the said climbs on its own cannot be sustained in the face of experience.

 

Ever been to Eldo? The Gunks? The Valley? RMNP? Indian Creek?J-Tree? Hardly bastions of sport climbing, and at most of these places, the sport routes that do exist are neglected in favor of moderate trad-routes that are within the range of the average weekend climber.

Have you convinced yourself that bolts haven't brought crowds to Vantage and I-90? It's too bad mental gymnastics is not an Olympic sport.

 

The name of the game is working together in an organized fashion so that we are an effective constituency that land managers will listen to, and working with land managers towards common goals whenever possible. That usually means taking concrete actions to mitigate our impact on the landscape surrounding the rock.

 

From what I'm reading, local land managers and conservation groups have the opinion that climbers' impacts can be noticed in both the horizontal AND the vertical.

 

Bolts are sometimes sufficient to cause increased climber traffic. They are not always necessary to cause increased climber traffic. There's a difference. There's not a hell of a lot of traffic to the base of the routes that Krakauer and Co established on that ridge in the vicinity of Index, despite the presence of a few dozen bolts in the rock. There was one bolt on all of OS the last time that I climbed it, yet the descent gully was hardly pristine. If you want to preserve access, you have to mitigate impact, and it's just not as simple as eliminating bolts from the equation. Why you chose to pretend otherwise is beyond me. If you are concerned about preserving access to the rocks, there's quite a few more constructive things you can do besides reminding the world how much you dislike bolts. I put in time and money every year to restore routes, remove trash, etc - as have many others. You'd have a lot more credibilty on this one if you walked the talk.

[pope]

Bolts are sometimes sufficient to cause increased climber traffic. They are not always necessary to cause increased climber traffic. There's a difference.

 

What you're saying holds water, but what you have presented is a very large vessel containing very little water. Bolts are not necessary for increased traffic. Absolutely...who could argue with that? You may be interested to know that according the DDD retrobolter who contacted me, I was one of only two climbers interviewed (prior to retrobolting) who disapproved. In making his case for retrobolting, he continually returned to one point: the route is filthy because it sees no traffic. Adding bolts would stimulate the traffic necessary to keep the route clean. My response was that I didn't care whether the route was clean or dirty, whether it received 50 or 2 ascents each year, bolting it would be a mistake.

 

I'm not sure how long you've been climbing but I've witnessed Smith and Vantage generate crowds that rival Belle Square's during the holidays, and I've also watched a number of Index's routes become filthy. But you're wasting your time trying to convince me that bolts don't stimulate increased traffic. Again, if you really believe what you're saying you may be in for a reality check.

 

 

Bolts are sometimes sufficient ... not always necessary to cause increased climber traffic. There's a difference.

Finally, in case you don't know who you're talking to, I am in no need of a lecture on the language of logic.

[Lambone]

ya know guys, yer really arguing about appels and oranges here...

 

Bolts increase traffic, and quality increases traffic. Anyone whos been climbing for a while has seen plenty increased traffic on trad climbs and on sport climbs. increased traffic everywhere, there are a multitude of factors that increase traffic, word of mouth, giudbooks, new trails, access roads, closures in other areas, newer/safer bolts or advancement in trad protection...

 

so jeeze...what's the point in arguing over that?

[marylou]

Jay B, what's your take on bolts in Wilderness? What about power drills in Wilderness?