I am really glad to know that the U.S. govt ...

[Dennis_Harmon]

Glen, I don't have the scientific supposition to suppose the way that you do, I guess, but don't you think that the incredible grid-lock of traffic that is cue'd up each morning in most major American cities, and then the after work commute, together contribute to resultant green-house emmisions that just might be the cause of accelerated global-warming? Dennis

[allison]

The weather was spectacular on the dry side this weekend. Sorry to hear you guys have been reduced to talking politics when the weather is sooooo nice!

[Dennis_Harmon]

I don't do week-ends Allison, because I never considered climbing to be a social activity. Hope you enjoyed the masses. Dennis

[allison]

The only person I saw all day yesterday was my partner. If you know what you are up against, humanwise, well, it's noooo problem.

[Uncle_Tricky]

Where'd you climb?

[Dennis_Harmon]

Would really like to return the topic to the subject at hand, though. Any other applicable comments would be appreciated. Just trying to learn. Dennis

[allison]

Nuttin' worthy of cc.com, just getting in shape for some upcoming ambitious XC hikes coming up later in the summer.... some hard 4th/easy 5th, and just part of the whole package. But....FWIW the high country is finally starting to melt out. There is some dry land over 6000' in south-facing drainages E of the Crest.

 

Hope you weren't talking to me, Denny.

[Dennis_Harmon]

Allison, Climbing is a sport, but apparently you and I don't share the same one. Grow up. Dennis

[AlpineK]

Glen the majority of scientists think that humans are causing a much more rapid warming of the earth than nauture ever did. Even the Bush Admin agrees with this

 

[ 07-07-2002, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: AlpineK ]

[bellemontagne]

quote:

---

Bottom line: Stopping burning fossil fuels will not stop global warming. Period. The main question is wether the rate at which global warming occurs and if it will happen faster than ecosystems can adapt sans mass extinctions.

---

VERY TRUE.

 

Hey Sayjay, why don't you add your two cents worth (I bet you get tired of commenting on this subject). You're probably one of the best people on this board to comment on the atmospheric aspects of this discussion.

 

IMHO, the biggest part of the problem is economics. Pollution = inefficiency. We have an economic externality in the market for natural resources. Simply put, the true costs of the exploitation of natural resources (be it coal, natural gas, petroleum, timber, etc) is not included in the price we pay at the market. This is a failure in the free market.

 

When we pay $1.47 for Plus Unleaded gas, the environmental costs are not included in the price. Some costs can be computed, but some costs cannot. Just think about how much environmental damage was caused by the Exxon Valdez spill... And oil spills are just a drop in the bucket compared to all of the health costs, habitat loss, loss of biodiversity, etc, etc, etc, caused by the exploitation of some natural resources.

 

So, if the market price for natural resources equaled their true environmental cost, they would EXCEED the cost of more environmentally friendly and sustainable sources of energy. Then, people would choose these less costly forms of energy over those that have a much higher environmental cost.

 

So, why is their a market failure in the market for natural resources?

 

Ask GW and his buddy Dick Cheney...

It's all about the few profiting off of the backs of the many.

[RedMonk]

hey dennis go fuck your self and leave allison alone....too bad she isn't a monster braggart prick like you.... you are the one who needs to grow up...i am only 20 an i can see that....

[RedMonk]

oh and good point pretty mountain....well said

[Dennis_Harmon]

Bellmontagne, Well stated and I don't have any arguments whatsoever. I'm listening. Dennis

[Dennis_Harmon]

Generation A-hole. I rest my case, your Honor. Dennis

[Fairweather]

quote:

---

Originally posted by AlpineK:

Dennis,

 

I don't think you've met one of the other long time posters, "Fairweather," but you're about to... He's going to give you links to sources like the Cato(SP?) Institute, who's financial backing comes from industries opposed to any kind of change in types of fuel used by the US. Also Fairweather will give you links to, "scientific," studies that lack peer review, but have funding from the institutions I noted above.

 

Have fun with Fairweather; I think he's got a lot of stock in Texaco and such.

---

AK,

 

I'm calling "bullshit". Show me a thread where I've ever quoted the Cato Institute.....and list for everyone here the "studies that lack peer review, but have funding [ from the institutions you noted above]" that I've quoted. All I've ever supported is common sense. Something reactionaries like you seem to lack.

[wayne]

One thing not contributing is Volcanoes. We seem to be lacking the explosions that used to occur that cut the suns rays down. Or meteor fallout,or nuclear winters that the bus admin are dreaming of

[Fairweather]

quote:

---

Originally posted by AlpineK:

Glen the majority of scientists think that humans are causing a much more rapid warming of the earth than nauture ever did. Even the Bush Admin agrees with this

---

Hey AK!

 

Can you back your "majority of scientists" claim, or is this just more anecdote?

By the way; the Bush Admin does NOT agree. The memo circulated by the EPA/Christine Whitman was disavowed by the administration. Once again, your "facts" are misleading or downright false.

[AlpineK]

Fairweather,

 

Yes I was making a general statement which you can't take literally. However, seeing that the majority of scientists agree that the rapid temperature changes we are starting to see are caused by humans, and since reports to the contrary lack peer review, I think you are getting your, "science," from sources that are suspect.

 

Anyway even the republican Bush Admin admits that humans are to blame for rapid climate change. They just don't want to do anything about it.

 

As to my sources why not talk to Sajay for more info. She posts here and she studies climate change.

 

[ 07-07-2002, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: AlpineK ]

[allison]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dennis Harmon:

Allison, Climbing is a sport, but apparently you and I don't share the same one. Grow up. Dennis

---

Huh? Denny, did you say something? Was it about something?

[AlpineK]

Here's something from an EPA site I found via a short search. One would think that if that wasn't the official Bush administration position they wouldn't say that we are altering our climate:

 

Once, all climate changes occurred naturally. However, during the Industrial Revolution, we began altering our climate and environment through changing agricultural and industrial practices. Before the Industrial Revolution, human activity released very few gases into the atmosphere, but now through population growth, fossil fuel burning, and deforestation, we are affecting the mixture of gases in the atmosphere.

 

Also:

 

Rising global temperatures are expected to raise sea level, and change precipitation and other local climate conditions. Changing regional climate could alter forests, crop yields, and water supplies. It could also affect human health, animals, and many types of ecosystems. Deserts may expand into existing rangelands, and features of some of our National Parks may be permanently altered.

Most of the United States is expected to warm, although sulfates may limit warming in some areas. Scientists currently are unable to determine which parts of the United States will become wetter or drier, but there is likely to be an overall trend toward increased precipitation and evaporation, more intense rainstorms, and drier soils.

Unfortunately, many of the potentially most important impacts depend upon whether rainfall increases or decreases, which can not be reliably projected for specific areas.

 

Also:

 

Nevertheless, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) stated there was a "discernible" human influence on climate; and that the observed warming trend is "unlikely to be entirely natural in origin." In the most recent Third Assessment Report (2001), IPCC wrote "There is new and stronger evidence that most of the warming observed over the last 50 years is attributable to human activities."

 

Source: EPA Global Warming Site

 

Sounds like the Bush Admin thinks Global Warming is real.

 

[ 07-07-2002, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: AlpineK ]

[monkeyboy]

Blah..Blah ..Blah.. whats this got to do with climbing.. Dennis isn't there a board for political debate you can clog with useless posts?

[iain]

quote:

---

Originally posted by texplorer:

Just a little fender bender could set off a hindenburgesqe exposion. Not only would you be cleaning hte environment but you would be keeping road ragers at a distance.

---

I think the fires on the hindenburg were attributed to the material in the casing, rather than the hydrogen in the balloon.

[Dru]

i think the fires on the hindenberg statrted when two of the crew were trying to toke up in the can and the roach dropped on the floor....they shoulda waited until muir hut...

[iain]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dru:

i think the fires on the hindenberg statrted when two of the crew were trying to toke up in the can and the roach dropped on the floor....they shoulda waited until muir hut...

---

stupid germans

[glen]

Dennis,

That's exactly what I said: the evidnence is a change in rate of global warming starting around the industrial revolution. The data is messy, but the change in trend is pretty clear nonetheless. Cars are definitely a part of it. But, that is a different thing than saying that our cars are the cause of global warming.

 

Environmental degradation is the cost of having the lifestyle that we all lead. That includes cars, silverware, computers, climbing gear, etc. You would be hard put to find something in the room that isn't made of cotton, tree or wool that didn't come from a mine. That fancy computer we are all typing at (or maybe just lurking ) had to come from somewhere. It's not a perfect world. The best way to mitigate is to simply consume less and have what you consume be more green-friendly. Recycle and reuse.