Spooky dynamics of real estate

[johndavidjr]

Must mention how real estate developers virtually hypnotized and called forth two threads elsewhere on this board. I am quite removed from NW politics and sensiblities as I live here in Jersey City NJ at present. I know Olympic residents have expressed lots of anger over the years. But I thought that climbers continued to understand wilderness values as traditionally espoused by many NW climbers.

 

Some years ago I inspected historical files on creation of North Cascades National Park in the basement of a small university library. Opposition in Washington, I gathered, was nearly unanimous. Everyone thought they understood the issue perfectly.

 

Purely based on local recreation opportunity the road should certainly be restored. But its repair will help set precedents or reinforce them & in general may have more negatives--

Edited May 26, 2004 by johndavidjr

[Fairweather]

I've hiked and climbed throughout the Olympic Mountains for virtually all of my 42 years. I was born and raised here. I've lived through the Washington Wilderness Act, the establishment of over a dozen new wilderness areas in the state, the Spotted Owl controversy, dozens of road washouts...and repairs, the enviro-sanctioned burning of public shelters, and on, and on. My children are now enjoying the beauty of this state, and The Olympic Range in particular.

 

Your premise that the creation of NCNP in 1968 was opposed almost "unanimously" by state residents demonstrates how little you know about this region. I am considerably annoyed that someone who resides on the east coast (New Jersey, no less!!) of this great country has the kahones to lecture those who live and breathe here about the ethics of wilderness access.

 

We're not talking about an open pit mine here, John. And contrary to your idiotic theory about some evil real estate cabal, reopening this road really is about restoring traditional access.

[cj001f]

I am considerably annoyed that someone who resides on the east coast of this great country has the kahones to lecture those who live and breathe here about the ethics of wilderness access.

Fairweather-

While I agree with some of what you have to say, living on the East Coast has nothing to do with his message. They're "National Parks" - owned by the nation. If anything living in the suburban hell that is the Richmond to Freeport Megapolis they need to dream of the recreation offered more.

[Fairweather]

CJ,

 

This has nothing to do with the national park directly. The road repair in on national forest land. Non-wilderness designated, no less.

 

Granted, still public owned, but who the hell is this guy who flies out here every 3 or 4 years....and tells me I should just 'let nature take over' re: road washouts? I guarantee you I spend more time in Olympic, and appreciate it at least as much as this pompous enviro-speak drone from New Jersey! Now he's going to pull this 'father knew best' east coast natter regarding the creation of North Cascades National Park?? WTF??

 

The guy should just go back to doing what New Jersey does best....making salsa.

[olyclimber]

I only have 35 years to Fairweather's 42 years...and I have been hestitant to weigh in on this issue because I'm not sure where I stand. On one hand, the washout makes the wilderness area bigger...true there is a road..but I've been up there recently and you can already see nature reclaiming it. On the other hand, there is a 4 mile addition to every thing I want to climb in that neck of the woods. This wasn't a problem for me...but then I'm not handicapped. Other than the handicapped angle, I haven't heard a convincing argument from either side. There is a large amount our country accessible by car. I'd like to hear a real argument from either side...not just that "is was there so it should continue to be" or "what about the little baby salmon".

[Fairweather]

Oly,

 

My desire for maintaining the access status quo is two-fold:

 

1) Personal. I do not believe maintaining current access is in any way damaging to the overall environmental picture. Additionally, I want to take my children, and eventually, grandchildren to the areas I have visited and loved so much. Eventually, unrepaired road washouts will make this difficult to impossible in this ever-busier world. Which leads me to an even more important reason...

 

2) If existing roads fall into disrepair, so too eventually will the trails. An apathetic public, not having experienced first-hand the beauty of places like ONP, will not likely be stirred to action when these areas are threatened again at some future time, the roads and trails having been long forgotten. Ira Spring also makes a similar compelling argument in the link provided by Sailboi:

http://brinnonprosperity.org/letters/ira_spring_letter_dose-repair.gif

 

I do not support ANY new road construction/incursions into wild areas, I just want existing access maintained. I know that although you and I have divergent views politically, we share a love of the Olympic backcountry. Mountains are a powerful bridge.

[Off_White]

Hey FW, stop picking on John just because of his location. Jeez, if you wanna play "locals only" go take up surfing.

 

He was alluding (not very clearly I don't think) to some establishment of precendent that serves real estate development? I don't see how repairing damaged roads in National Forests does that. I'm not surprised that local real estate interests there want the road opened back up, but that's more due to recreational opportunities as a sales tool, and I don't think their interests in this case are at all in conflict with climbers. If there is a precedent to set, it's that damaged roads don't get repaired, and that doesn't serve my interests at all. Where does that trend lead? Yeah, the Mountain Loop highway is expensive to repair, let it go, and the Cascade River road gets damaged a lot, Highway 20 takes a lot of hits, maybe it should be returned to a natural state... Bad enough that we're losing a chunk of the Middle Fork Snoqualamie road. I think maintaining public access to wilderness is the best way to ensure it's survival, because that's how you can turn the uninformed into proponents.

[Fairweather]

 

I think we're on the same page regarding trailhead access.

 

Unfortunately, you are still a liberal hippie.

[johndavidjr]

For the record, there are 80 private acres on road beyond wash-out. I'm thinking of putting in a real low-ball bid. Whaddya think?----

Edited May 26, 2004 by johndavidjr

[cj001f]

For the record, there are 80 private acres on road beyond wash-out. I'm thinking of putting in a real low-ball bid. Whaddya think?

I think that'd give us local status that'd trump Fairweather's 40 years!

[mtn_mouse]

On one hand, the washout makes the wilderness area bigger...true there is a road..but I've been up there recently and you can already see nature reclaiming it. On the other hand, there is a 4 mile addition to every thing I want to climb in that neck of the woods.

 

I don't know why this is such a difficult decision. We are talking about restoring an existing road. If this was a proposed new road into a previously roadless area, I think most here would be opposed to it. But this is traditional road access to a remote campground and ranger station. In my opinion, this trail head is the best access to the best area of the olympics. The trails, and climbs from dose are many, and the wilderness is still very remote. I have always felt that this trailhead was the safest to park in, with the lowest incidence of car clouting, and large enough for the amount of users. Where do you park now at the washout? Three or four cars and that's it.

The environmentalists are wacko. Anyone knows who has been there that the short road reroute will not damage the wilderness. WTF are they thinking?

So we need the road. I want to spend as much time in the high country as I can. The dose trailhead is significantly higher in elevation than the washout, and I want that headstart into the mountains. ONP has a bad track record of removing roads. When my dad was a kid, he used to drive right to the base of the flapjack lakes trail, and ascend directly to the lake. Now it is an 8 mile flat trail. The olympic hot springs road on the elwha drainage is closed to vehicles too now. I remember driving there, and liked the head start I got into the high country.

Who cares who is supporting this road reconstruction, even if it is real estate intrests. Sometimes causes overlap.

[johndavidjr]

Why not rebuild the bridge that once crossed Queets river at trailhead? It is so far to drive, the least the feds could do after taxing your gas, would be to let you cross the river without drowning. ...??? am joking to make a point. Historical precedent holds a lot of sway, but many wouldn't quibble with policy on Queets Valley. BTW I've been to Dose trailhead-- in 1977 & in 2000 went elsewhere(by a series of super-cheap county bus rides) when I learned it was shut.

 

Even if you agree philosophically, with Ira Spring (shelton native who supported rebuild) you can't discount Harvey Manning, who I assume would be opposed & who disagreed bitterly with Spring.

 

But first there's "brinnonprosperity.org" which has been called into play, and is at best distasteful because of its multiple links to "james watt" type organizations of the hard right. Such groups are unable to participate in discussion of wilderness, other than in purely negative role, because they apparently lack the necessary terms & concepts.

 

Then there's minor point about the 80 acres that are privately owned beyond the Dose washout. I assume development of wildest dreams of "brinnonprosperity.org" is properly restricted, but these acres may be relevant. What are development plans & where are these acres exactly?

 

I guess the legend is well-known of an early ONP proposal to build cable car system through ONP --to provide access while preserving wilderness. Brilliant, because, to apply brinnonprosperity.org's reasoning on road impact, the cable would only be a few inches wide, and at 100 miles long, would take up far less than an acre of the park. (Vs 4.5 for Dose rd.)

 

 

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[mtn_mouse]

BTW I've been to Dose trailhead-- in 1977 & in 2000 went elsewhere

 

BTW JDJR,

I have been using the dose trailhead since 1983, often every week at times, to access the high country quickly. It has been the most used trailhead by me and my friends. I have done many climbs of Anderson, Anderson-Eel glacier traverses, Mt. Constance, Inner Constance, Mt. Mystery. I have accessed cross country routes through Anderson pass, Constance pass, and Hayden pass. I have done one day trail runs from dose to Graves creek, and from dose to Whiskey bend.

 

I have not used this trailhead much in the last couple of years other that a bicycle trip or two, or to access Constance. The route is now long enough to deter a person like me with limited time to hike/climb, vs. the long drive from where I now live.

 

I find it odd that someone who had only accessed this trailhead once, has such a strong opinion on it. An that from someone I assume was a one time seasonal NPS employee (camp john david jr being the seasonal training center for Olympic)

 

[johndavidjr]

Those sound like some incredible trips & you must identify strongly with the place. I've never even been beyond old dose trailhead, though hiked in uppaDuckabush 4-5 times & did get to Anderson Pass from Quinault once. I gather the East Side is short on access, but not as "bad" as the west & SW portions. My fav is probably Queets trails -- & as I say, from Dose advocates view, why not replace bridge at Queets trailhed? (Was there in fact ever a bridge there? It seems almost certain. Also, history buffs, what is world altitude record for truck-travel on Mt. Olympus-- and when was this record set?

[Off_White]

I don't think there has ever been a bridge at the Queets trailhead.

[Fairweather]

For the record, there are 80 private acres on road beyond wash-out. I'm thinking of putting in a real low-ball bid. Whaddya think?----

 

Given that you claimed a bridge once spanned The Queets in order to make your case against traditional access...and then later posted a plea for information about whether this mythical bridge ever existed (in another forum here on CC.com), I am compelled to ask you to cite your sources regarding this "80 acres" that is supposedly for sale beyond the washout....

 

Maybe I'm wrong, and this 80 acres does in fact exist???

 

I will anxiously await your posting of the source for this claim.

[eternalX]

This has nothing to do with the thread, but I was in NJ (Princeton) all last week on business and I've never been a place so ass backwards. 55 mph speed limits on the freeway and you can only buy beer at a liquor store.

 

Everytime I leave the PNW I am quickly reminded how rad we have it here. I feel sorry for everyone else when I fly into their flat, disgusting, suburban cities.

 

The PNW

[Fairweather]

For the record, there are 80 private acres on road beyond wash-out. I'm thinking of putting in a real low-ball bid. Whaddya think?----

 

Given that you claimed a bridge once spanned The Queets in order to make your case against traditional access...and then later posted a plea for information about whether this mythical bridge ever existed (in another forum here on CC.com), I am compelled to ask you to cite your sources regarding this "80 acres" that is supposedly for sale beyond the washout....

 

Maybe I'm wrong, and this 80 acres does in fact exist???

 

I will anxiously await your posting of the source for this claim.

 

Still waiting, JohnDavidJr....

[Fairweather]

Still waiting, Johndavidjr.......

 

You've posted in other threads since I first questioned your "80 acres" claim, so where's the source??? Did you just make it up perhaps?

[Dru]

"40 Acres and a mule, jack!" - Flavor Flav

[johndavidjr]

A rather obvious source, for those actually interested, is "DOSEWALLIPS WASHOUT ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT." It refers to the private acreage in the section titled "access" but provides no further info on subject. See http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/olympic/projects/washout/DoseWashout_EA.htm#3

 

P.S. Queets question remains unclear but I STILL think there was probably a bridge there & remain interested in learning more Queets Valley history. In any case, prior to FDR aquiring Queets Valleyfor NPS, there was private land & homesteading on Queets trail above current trailhed, bridge or not. The place is now regarded by many people as remote wilderness, & access isn't an issue.

 

Edited June 2, 2004 by johndavidjr