Abu Gharaib is Little League

[mothboy88]

I think you raise a very salient point PP. We are demanding higher standards for care of foriegn prisoners than we have for our own citizens domestically. But I would argue that we are better off as a society if we demand more humane treatment of prisoners both domestically and with POWs (or whatever you want to refer to them as). Maybe we need the Red Cross to visit San Qunetin .

[chucK]

Difficult to compare the two.

 

For one thing, the prisoners at San Quentin have been convicted or have plead guilty. Surely, there are some miscarriages of justice here, but probably not the 70-90% false-imprisonment rate that is being estimated by the Red Cross for the detainees in Iraq.

 

Second, though allowing prisoners to brutalize each other is bad, it's not as bad as having the guards doing the systematic brutalization.

 

 

I like Peter's point about the fact that releasing the photos harms the prisoners even more. It seemes like a plausible reason the administration could use to withhold release. It is interesting that their current stated reason for withholding the pictures is so the soldiers' proceedings are not interfered with. That doesn't seem to hold water because the court martials are just done using a panel of judges that are going to see all the pictures anyway aren't they. They're probably using the "protect the military" excuse because it will play better with the US public and the vets in particular.

 

 

I talked to this vet today, and he said he got this giant plaque just the other day from Bush and Rumsfeld, thanking him for his service during the Cold War. He said it was so big it didn't even fit in the mail! I wonder if the administration is worried about losing vet votes when sacrificing those 6 enlisted personell? This guy I was talking to was all supportive of the torturers.

[Mal_Con]

How about the fairness of a court martial when the commander and chief of the judges has already declared the defendants guilty?

[Peter_Puget]

Question: If releasing the pictures causes the prisoners humiliation and thus is contrary to the convention, is allowing the publication of these pictures by a US company tantamount to the same thing? For example, if the prisoners were being march from point a to pint b ( in the US) the US would have the obligation to prevent its citizens from attacking the prisoners as they marched. How is allowing the publication of the pictures any different?

 

 

Chances are a young man entering the US prison system will be raped within 48 hrs. Crimes against criminals are still crimes.

 

By the way how often have the prison pictures been on the front page? The tv networks stopped showing video of people jumping/falling from the WTC almost immediately.

[mothboy88]

Difficult to compare the two.

 

For one thing, the prisoners at San Quentin have been convicted or have plead guilty. Surely, there are some miscarriages of justice here, but probably not the 70-90% false-imprisonment rate that is being estimated by the Red Cross for the detainees in Iraq.

But does that mean if the Iraqi's were actually guilty, this treatment would be OK?

Second, though allowing prisoners to brutalize each other is bad, it's not as bad as having the guards doing the systematic brutalization.

 

Its still systemic. I figure the guards and administrators are just as responsible as prison rapists if they knowingly allow it to occurr.

 

 

 

This guy I was talking to was all supportive of the torturers.

 

I lsitened to some conservative radio sation yesterday. They were discussing an editorial that I unfortunatly can't reference. Supposedly a journalist published an article yesterday trying to argue that the release of the photos has caused a decrease in attacks against the US. Says the only thing they respect in the Middle East is brute force and the power to humiliate blah blah blah. I find the notion that this scandal will help out troops in the long run to be crazy, but a lot of people agreed with the theory.

[j_b]

Question: If releasing the pictures causes the prisoners humiliation and thus is contrary to the convention, is allowing the publication of these pictures by a US company tantamount to the same thing? For example, if the prisoners were being march from point a to pint b ( in the US) the US would have the obligation to prevent its citizens from attacking the prisoners as they marched. How is allowing the publication of the pictures any different?

 

if it's what it takes for people to realize what's going on, they have to be published (in their entirety btw, no the few we are going to see). the intent for publishing them is the deciding factor, which in this case does not amount to further abuse.

 

 

Chances are a young man entering the US prison system will be raped within 48 hrs. Crimes against criminals are still crimes.

 

when conservatives start mentioning the rights of us prisoners, you know they have to be doing damage control.

 

By the way how often have the prison pictures been on the front page? The tv networks stopped showing video of people jumping/falling from the WTC almost immediately.

 

you have got to be kidding. we did not see people jumping off that much but it's wasn't to protect the rights of these poor souls. it was more to not traumatize the population. yet, the tv use of the 9/11 events was the most intensive we've ever seen.

[Martlet]

You both blatantly missed the point......again.

[Martlet]

Heck I'm going to vote for Bush just cause it's so much fun watching you guys defend him. Come on admit it, you loved it when you got to sit on the sidelines and hurl bombs at Clinton and all the left had to spin away. It's just sweet revenge, what goes around comes around...and the cycle continues.

 

Actually, I voted for Clinton.

[willstrickland]

I'm going to have it both ways, I'm voting for George Clinton.

 

Gotta have that funk.

[gotterdamerung]

American beheaded ...not surprised at brutal retaliation. There'll be more. What do you think Bush cares about more, the fate of Americans in Iraq or his re-election chances?

 

If they can use brutal retaliation why can't we? Are they stronger than us?

[EWolfe]

I'm going to have it both ways, I'm voting for George Clinton.

 

[Stonehead]

Michael Berg lashed out at the U.S. military and Bush administration, saying his son might still be alive had he not been detained by U.S. officials in Iraq without being charged and without access to a lawyer.

 

Pa. family angry with American government over son's brutal death

[EWolfe]

Michael Berg lashed out at the U.S. military and Bush administration, saying his son might still be alive had he not been detained by U.S. officials in Iraq without being charged and without access to a lawyer.

 

Pa. family angry with American government over son's brutal death

 

True, Dat, but.

Man, you harshin' on my mellow.

[Stonehead]

Funk that

[gotterdamerung]

On good authority Mr. Berg was detained because he had entered the country illegally and did not have a VISA. He was detained lawfully.

 

M. Berg's death while tragic and unneccessary still needs to examined from the point of view that he was operating in a combat site as an independent w/o proper authorization. There are sometimes great risks to travelling in this country alone. I'm sure he knew that, chose to operate anyway, and became the victim of an unfortunate set of circumstances beyond his control other than to not be in Iraq period. If you come here you have to say to yourself that you may die here. It's a fact of this place and one not to be taken lightly. To sit back and pass judgement of his actions or the actions of the IP's who detained him is frivolous speculation and bears no further scrutiny. The guys who beheaded him should be your focus. The focus of your contempt and your anger. I would think the beheading of another American would rise public ire in such a way that you, the American people would be clamoring for harsh military retribution. Even the Iraq's are wondering why we aren't slamming the fist down. I'll tell you why. Politics and election year. If Bush gets back into office for 4 more years this place will feel the fury of 130,00 Americans kicking their ass when they deserve it.

[marylou]

We are gong to liberate Iraq if we have to kill every single Iraqi to do so.

[gotterdamerung]

No, if you are here you realize that the majority of Iraqi's are worth our efforts (as a nation, not many Westerners can stand them for very long on a personal level). I've covered this point of view before. I haven't seen you do a goddamned thing to help these people out. I regularly purchase things from Iraqi's that I don't need to help them out. Take the time out of my day to try to learn a few words of their language and show them I am interested in who they are. I also routinely wander around looking for those people who could use a little charity and give them some when I find them. I would have no problem killing insurgents and those who try to do harm to the coalition. I don't go out of my way to find trouble, that's not my job. I protect people here, and sometimes it's very boring. But boring can be good too. It means I'm doing my job.

[Martlet]

No, if you are here you realize that the majority of Iraqi's are worth our efforts (as a nation, not many Westerners can stand them for very long on a personal level). I've covered this point of view before. I haven't seen you do a goddamned thing to help these people out. I regularly purchase things from Iraqi's that I don't need to help them out. Take the time out of my day to try to learn a few words of their language and show them I am interested in who they are. I also routinely wander around looking for those people who could use a little charity and give them some when I find them. I would have no problem killing insurgents and those who try to do harm to the coalition. I don't go out of my way to find trouble, that's not my job. I protect people here, and sometimes it's very boring. But boring can be good too. It means I'm doing my job.

 

Very valid point. The media focuses on the negative, not the positive. As tragic as it is, civilian deaths there are extremely low considering the number of civilians.

[Skeezix]

American beheaded ...not surprised at brutal retaliation. There'll be more. What do you think Bush cares about more, the fate of Americans in Iraq or his re-election chances?

 

If they can use brutal retaliation why can't we? Are they stronger than us?

 

Point is, what do you think Bush cares more about, the fate of Americans in Iraq, or his re-election chances?

[Martlet]

American beheaded ...not surprised at brutal retaliation. There'll be more. What do you think Bush cares about more, the fate of Americans in Iraq or his re-election chances?

 

If they can use brutal retaliation why can't we? Are they stronger than us?

 

Point is, what do you think Bush cares more about, the fate of Americans in Iraq, or his re-election chances?

 

Actually, the two are interchangeable. Unlike Kerry's no show at his party's big push for unemployment benefits. Only one person missed the vote, and it lost by one vote. Any guesses who the AWOL voter was?

 

If you guessed Kerry, you get a lollipop.

[markinore]

I regularly purchase things from Iraqi's that I don't need to help them out. Take the time out of my day to try to learn a few words of their language and show them I am interested in who they are. I also routinely wander around looking for those people who could use a little charity and give them some when I find them. I would have no problem killing insurgents and those who try to do harm to the coalition. I don't go out of my way to find trouble, that's not my job. I protect people here, and sometimes it's very boring.

 

So tell us, GD, is that the strategy for building a democracy in Iraq? Individual acts of kindness and charity and opening the occasional (or not so occasional) can of whoopass for the bad guys?

 

A columnist this morning referred to the pictures from Abu Ghraib and said that is what empire looks like. That lefty columnist was George Will. When even conservatives like Will and Patrick Buchanan recognize that what the U.S. is doing in Iraq is closely analogous to the empire building of the European powers of the last two centuries, it's time for the rest of America to wake up and acknowledge the obvious. You cannot impose democracy, free markets, and rule of law in a foreign country at gunpoint. You can, however, hurt those same institutions at home.

[gotterdamerung]

The Iraqi's seem to deeply respect strength through arms. Individual acts of kindness are simply that. An act of kindness towards a fellow human being. I believe that if Bush gets reelected there will be harsher responses regarding murders of soldiers and Americans. I also believe the military will step up operations to defeat insurgency. I don't like the idea of pulling out without setting the record straight. Having said that, I think we need a tougher strategy and an exit plan. I don't make policy, and I am only speculating. My opinions could be echoed amongst the halls of power however.

[olyclimber]

[Martlet]

It's a good thing there are emoticons on this BBS, or oly wouldn't have anything to say while following the herd.

[Peter_Puget]

good short read link