here's somthing to think about

[whirlwind]

next time u pay 2+dollars a gallon at the pump, know that it isn't going to get any better while bush is around

get pissed

then do something about it

[whirlwind]

here's moron Bush

missing money

[catbirdseat]

Seems like hybrid and electric is the way to go. There already are distribution systems for gasoline, diesel and electricity. Hybrid technology could cut oil consumption in half. The crisis then goes away in a hurry. I wonder why they don't make a diesel hybrid. If a gasoline hybrid can get 50 mpg, a diesel hybrid would get 75 mpg.

 

Hmm. Okay, they are working on it. Diesel truck.

[lummox]

bovine freedom

[AlpineK]

I've heard FedEx is testing some diesel hybrid delivery trucks.

[sk]

are you serious AK??

[arlen]

That's crap! Fuel cell technology is the only viable technology, because it requires about as much fossil fuels to make the hydrogen as a gas engine would. Getting us from place to place is a nice benefit, but everybody knows the purpose of transportation is to turn all the world's oil into CO2.

[AlpineK]

umm diesel hybrid uses...diesel not hydrogen.

 

desk jocky

[catbirdseat]

That's crap! Fuel cell technology is the only viable technology, because it requires about as much fossil fuels to make the hydrogen as a gas engine would. Getting us from place to place is a nice benefit, but everybody knows the purpose of transportation is to turn all the world's oil into CO2.

In THEORY, since electricity is used to produce hydrogen from water, you could use renewable sources like solar and wind power to generate the electricity. But in practice most of the electricity would be generated by fossible fuels, including coal which produces more CO2 per unit heat, but which the US possesses in abundance. All we got to do is push a few more mountains into steams in Appalachia and we've got all the coal we need.

[whirlwind]

i agree, along with hydro cars home and busness energy need to be revamped, but the most import part is starting the procees now and not waiting another couple of decades to maybe see some change

[arlen]

sarcasm...

 

the trouble with fuel cells:

 

"Nuclear energy, solar energy, fossil energy are all primary energy sources. Hydrogen is not, it doesn't exist, it has to be produced. Electricity is not, it has to be produced," he said. "So in each case, with hydrogen or with electricity you have to produce them with a primary energy source. And in this country we produce almost all of our electricity with the primary source of coal."

[whirlwind]

coal has to be mined and in some cases input of energy quite a bit, use solar to create hydrogen, in which case u only have to prodece solar panels,( which will also stimulate the economy) less polution, and more energy which is renewable and cheap, after the initail over head costs

[willstrickland]

All we got to do is push a few more mountains into steams in Appalachia and we've got all the coal we need.

 

Oh boy, let's not go there...I work for the branch of the agency that regulates this. We're in a conundrum with this one and here's why:

 

You strip off the top of the hill to get to the low-sulfur coal. Low sulfur is the key word here, these coal deposits produce less sulfur dioxide (SO2) when burned. 65% of the SO2 emitted in the US comes from coal fired electric power plants. SO2 is what causes "acid rain" among other problems.

 

 

These are old, old mountains and the material being removed is highly compacted. Once it's out of the ground, the volume is greater and you simply can't put it all back where it came from when the mining is finished. Trucking the excess away is prohibitively expensive. You're on a mountain/hill/ridgetop. What do you do with it?

 

The big problem is, this material is unweathered and hence high in unoxidized sulfur compounds...primarily pyrite (FeS2). So in the absence of alkaline material to neutralize and assuming the presence of oxygen and water, you get a 4 step chemical reaction that oxidizes the FeS2 producing ferrous iron (Fe2+), that Fe2+ is oxidized to ferric iron (Fe3+), the ferric iron is hydrolyzed and you have acid (H+) as a result. There are other more compicated chemical reactions that also occur where the resulting ferric acts directly on the pyrite acting as a catalyst for generating ferrous iron, sulfate, and acid (FeS2 + 14 Fe3 + 8 H2O = 15 Fe2+ 2 SO4(2-) + 16 H+)

 

When these areas naturally weather, the acid production is low/slow. When you have a huge amount of surface area (i.e. tailings) with oxygen in the pores and water flowing through...it's ideal for producing acid.

 

Our mandate, along with EPA, is to regulate and protect the waters of the US. Unfortunately, we are an arm of the DOD. This is a policy issue that's a hot topic right now, and there aren't any good solutions. Countoured tailings piles with a geotextile barrier and water capture/collection and treatment is probably workable, but also expensive.

[burgersling]

next time u pay 2+dollars a gallon at the pump, know that it isn't going to get any better while bush is around

 

Well you're kinda dumb if you think gasoline will get cheaper with anyone else in the White House.

 

Here's something else to think about: If Kerry is elected president he'll nationalize healthcare which will shift the burden from businesses to the people. This will relieve businesses of one of their largest expenses which ultimately will benefit shareholders.

[glacier]

Goddamit! It's 2004! Where's my nuclear-powered aircar that those fukkin' scifi authors promised me?!?!?! Damn right, I'm pissed...

[catbirdseat]

Nuclear power would be a good clean way to make the electricity need to make Bush's hydrogen. Somehow, I don't think the people are going to go for that. If we had fusion power right now, wouldn't that be great? It would solve all our energy problems. It seems that fusion power may be a century away.

[E-rock]

We can't even get alternative energy off the ground in the US. Bush is blowing sunshine up everyone's ass when he talks about Hydrogen Cells. It's a fucking pipe dream considering our current energy system. And Nuclear power isn't going to solve any problems either. We already tried in the 50's, 60's, and 70's, remember?

 

Alternative energy, and forward thinking leaders are our future, not failed energy sources from the past, and cars that aren't being built.

[MrDoolittle]

That's crap! Fuel cell technology is the only viable technology, because it requires about as much fossil fuels to make the hydrogen as a gas engine would. Getting us from place to place is a nice benefit, but everybody knows the purpose of transportation is to turn all the world's oil into CO2.

In THEORY, since electricity is used to produce hydrogen from water, you could use renewable sources like solar and wind power to generate the electricity. But in practice most of the electricity would be generated by fossible fuels, including coal which produces more CO2 per unit heat, but which the US possesses in abundance. All we got to do is push a few more mountains into steams in Appalachia and we've got all the coal we need.

 

Weak. Columbia River Gorge is a great place for cleanly producing hydrogen.

 

1) Set up wind-powered generator

2) Use electricity to disassociate H20.

3) Collect H2

4) Utilize H2 in Fuel Cell

 

Another clean(non-fossil fuel) source

 

1) Collect CH4 from anaerobic decomposition of garbage

2) Catalyze decomposition of CH4 into H2 and Cn

3) Utilize H2 in Fuel Cell

 

I once visited a "Trash Pit" near Seattle where the were collecting methane and burning it on site. They could have used the heat to produce electricity, but energy regulators were preventing them. WASTEFUL!!!

[MrDoolittle]

Bush is blowing sunshine up everyone's ass when he talks about Hydrogen Cells. It's a fucking pipe dream considering our current energy system. And Nuclear power isn't going to solve any problems either. We already tried in the 50's, 60's, and 70's, remember?

 

Alternative energy, and forward thinking leaders are our future, not failed energy sources from the past, and cars that aren't being built.

 

Nuclear power is a great source of energy. The main problem with fission power is that poeple make mistakes, and mistakes lead to accidents, and accidents lead to disasters. Another problem is that there exists a hysteria towards anything "Nuclear". For example MRI (Magnetic resonace Imaging) is possible due to NMR (Nuclear Magnetic Resonance), but people would freak out if you told them they were receiving something "nuclear".

As far as Bush and fuel cells, all of recent arm-flapping is BS, in that the money he has directed towrds fuel-cell research is specific to fossil-fuel based fuel cell technology, not H2.

[whirlwind]

its a combnation of all the problems, the fact of the matter is that we need to stop being so wasteful, and no i don't think the gas prices will go down that was the point of the link there dipshit, and i hope they don't go down cause thats the only way to get people and buseness motivated to intergrate alternative sources of energy. oh and btw transportation costs on avg are the secound highest expence that most buisness' have, 2nd only to labor costs

[whirlwind]

as far as health care goes, if its natioanlized the employer's will be able to reduce expenditure, resulting in more jobs and cheaper products less of cource there consevatives then it'll just mean more profit, 50% of the population lack basic health, i personally would rather see tax money go to health care than funding an aready over funded military, go to that secound link, there is more than enough money out there that no one wants us to know about, roughly 3 time the defict has "disapeared"

http://www.buddycom.com/entertain/veejay/vj45.html

 

Edited February 26, 2004 by wirlwind

[MrDoolittle]

...then I don't care what you think, "dipshit". I was only clarifying some points. I love SUVs, and any form of wastefulness, for the simple fact that it will soon enough FORCE us to change our ways, when faced with ANNIHILATION.

[whirlwind]

um i wasn't refering to u

[burgersling]

Sorry, you must be referring to me then as I pointed out the problem wasn't gonna be solved with Kerry or Nader. No, I didn't read your link after seeing all the drivel you've posted so far this morning. Carry on with your liberal circle-jerk.

[Dustin_B]

get pissed

then do something about it

 

Yeah, like go protesting on a bridge over I-405 or I-5, or better yet, hand out flyers and protest around green lake