sk Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 (edited) muffy has a big fat festering black boil of a problem. Let me preface it by saying that I have lead out side a dozen or more times and have never seen one of my draws twisted or the rope against the gate. My problem: I set out this winter to work on my leading in the gym. since doing so I have started to back clip and I can't seem to stop. I want diagrams and pointer and hints and I need yer help. I want to understand better what a back clip i.. I want to see picture of how and how not to clip... lets also talk about quuick draws and brands and what is good and bad about them.. unless they are all realy the same... do I want bent gate, does it matter???? please help muffy Edited February 20, 2004 by Muffy_The_Wanker_Sprayer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 I believe there are some good diagrams in "Freedom of the Hills". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted February 20, 2004 Author Share Posted February 20, 2004 I believe there are some good diagrams in "Freedom of the Hills". thanks for your help smart ass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bird Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 I think a lot of the problem with back clipping in the gym is that the bolts are placed so closely together. Usually outside this is not too much of a problem, unless you are leading gear and like to sew it up. The root of the problem is that beginning gear leaders tend to place gear and clip bolts as high above their heads as possible. If you place gear and clip bolts around your chest level I bet your problem will be solved. Plus you will not waste as much energy clipping. I don't have any diagrams to show you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummox Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 the olde google trick for 'backclipping' yielded: http://www.altrec.com/published/climb/skills/backclipwhat/ complete with pictures an shit. bent gate biners are said to be more likely to have the rope open the gate and come out altogether. i have seen this demonstrated many times by smartasses at the gear shops and in the crag parking lots. personally i dont see how 99% of the falls a climber might take out generate such a weird whip against the gate even if you backclipped. and btw i used to climb with a very competent dude who preferred the 'backclipped' orientation. fukin semantics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Sit around your house at night and clip a draw. Hang it from a light or something and just clip it like 10000 times over the course of a few nights at home and you won't have a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted February 20, 2004 Author Share Posted February 20, 2004 (edited) starting to feel better thanks bird Edited February 20, 2004 by Muffy_The_Wanker_Sprayer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummox Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 and one more thing: if your quickdraws are floppy it is easy enough to just rotate the biner after you clipped it if you dont like the gate orientation. the little rubber thong thingys on a lot of sport draws prevent easy rotating of the biner though. and you should get outside more muffy. really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 I am really impressed to see Muffy asking technical questions. It shows she is starting to get serious about her climbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 I believe there are some good diagrams in "Freedom of the Hills". thanks for your help smart ass I was actually serious; that book is a good reference. Don't they teach reading and reading comprehension in Oregon schools anymore? Too much sensitivity and self-esteem realization probably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted February 20, 2004 Author Share Posted February 20, 2004 Seriously, I love you guys!! Thank you so much and I am getting serious about my climbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted February 20, 2004 Author Share Posted February 20, 2004 I believe there are some good diagrams in "Freedom of the Hills". thanks for your help smart ass I was actually serious; that book is a good reference. Don't they teach reading and reading comprehension in Oregon schools anymore? Too much sensitivity and self-esteem realization probably. Some times I have an easier time learning something if I have a discussion about it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummox Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 good: not as good: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted February 20, 2004 Author Share Posted February 20, 2004 okay I think I get it.. the rope goes under instead of over.... is that right??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willstrickland Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Sounds like Bird is talking about "z" clipping rather than back clipping. If you call into the face the "back" and away from the face the "front": the Back clip Muffy is when your rope runs into the biner (from below)through the front and out through the back. Like this: ___/__| __0___| cliff _/____| side You want: _\____| __0___| cliff ___\__| side It's an issue because if you fall and the rope is back clipped it has a chance to come across the gate, thereby opening the gate and unclipping itself. You want the thing clipped so it's running from the previous piece into the biner from the back and out the front. If you screw it up and are pumped, just flip the biner over like someone said. You'll still be backclipped, but the gate opening will be pointing up and it's almost impossible for it to unclip itself. I am in the habit of flipping the biners gate opening up everytime I use a long sling. It's also why my draws have the bolt side biner in the narrow opening and the clipper in the wider opening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trundle Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 I used to think that it wasn't that big of deal either Lummox. Then I met a guy in Mexico who "used to" climb. Turns out he took a fall, a backclip came undone and he grounded from 45 ft. He was blind and paralyzed for 6 months and then just blind for another 6. I never let a backclip go anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrueger Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Post deleted by jkrueger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 (edited) Anyone ever use one of these? PMS has them for $22.50. Edited February 20, 2004 by catbirdseat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 I’ll admit to using one before. My take is that it might be useful for a specific clip somewhere on earth but in general it is not very useful. Maybe a shorter person would like it more than I did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappy Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 I think a lot of the problem with back clipping in the gym is that the bolts are placed so closely together. Usually outside this is not too much of a problem, unless you are leading gear and like to sew it up. The root of the problem is that beginning gear leaders tend to place gear and clip bolts as high above their heads as possible. If you place gear and clip bolts around your chest level I bet your problem will be solved. Plus you will not waste as much energy clipping. I don't have any diagrams to show you. Bird- I think your talkin about "z-clipping" not back clipping. Muff, I mean Muffy- The rope leading to your waist should be over the biner not under when you clip correctly. Remeber to try and face the gate away from the direction of climbing, but if your gripped any old clip is better than fumbling and falling with a lot of rope out. Draw wise I prefer Petzl Spirits to any other biners, set in draws of varying lengths with one straight and one bent gate. They have a smooth action (even after they are WELL used), key-locks that don't catch on shit, and are fairly light weight. That said: I also use a lot of Omega Pacific and Trango wire gates on mountain and long trad routes. They are lighter, the gates don't chatter (better chance of falling on a closed gate), and they are far cheaper than Spirits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bird Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Sounds like Bird is talking about "z" clipping rather than back clipping. Yep. I realized it after I posted that I was thinking about z clipping. Getting higher up before you clip probably helps backclipping too because it is less effort to clip and you can see better what you are doing. Oh yeah, I like the longer draws because they are good to have for trad climbing and for clipping into anchors and such. If a route zig zags they are beter for rope drag too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 I've heard the opinion on this site that if you use shoulder length slings (a la trad climbing) you don't have to be as worried. I don't use the dog-bone type draws too much, but I still try and remain conscious of which way I'm clipping and travelling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted February 20, 2004 Author Share Posted February 20, 2004 z clipping is when you pull the rope from below you last piece??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klenke Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Hey, Catbird, I got one of those frogs. Never used it. Always thought there might be an instance where I'd like to have it (where a clip is just beyond my reach). However, I don't usually take it with me; and when I do, my partners make fun of it. ------------------------------------- Backclipping is not as big a problem with long runners. This should be obvious but I thought I'd make the comment anyway. Also, as to Bird and Stricklands comments, I'm thinking when you clip at waist level, the less awkward action is to bring the rope up through the biner when clipping it through. This would lead to the correct result (i.e., no backclipping). The more awkward action is to bring the rope above the biner then clip it down through the biner. Not only would this feel odd but you'd probably see the folly in the end result. However, when clipping high above the head, the way you have to make sort of a curve of rope in your hand or over the back of your hand to clip it through the biner, there is a greater chance that you will put the bottom end of the rope (the belayer end) through the outside of the biner first (i.e., such that you are backclipping). It would depend on the technique employed and situation at hand. But think about it, when you clip above your head, it can be difficult sometimes to clip the right way (inside out) whereas the wrong way is a little easier to do exertion-wise (outside in). Plus, it's probably easier to control the flopping of the biner if you can push it into the rock while backclipping. So, in the act of trying to control the biner from flopping/twisting, you may unwittingly backclip. Z-clipping is more of a problem when clipping above your head because you may need to do something odd like descend or traverse whereupon you grab the rope from below your last piece. Clearly, if you clip at your waist and then move up from the clip, you can't z-clip. Usually, you see it when it's happening and stop, but not always. It's more of a problem leading in indoor gyms. The more common problem is when the second is climbing up and forgets to clean a piece and suddenly finds himself restrained from below. Doh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappy Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 z clipping is when you pull the rope from below you last piece??? Yup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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