layton Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 As flukes seem to be the topic in rave right now, I'd like to know when the last time you actually used a fluke. Not showing someone how to use it, or practicing, but actually used the damn thing As Pro on a climb In my 50 combined years of climbing experience I've never used one for real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted February 13, 2004 Author Share Posted February 13, 2004 but what's funny is it was one of the first pieces of climbing gear I bought. I think I got my gorts at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialed Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 I've "used" 'em on a couple occasions as pro and as anchors. Though I think if I farted they probably would have fallen out. They work a lot better for staking out the megamid I tell you what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 i read a story about someone taking an 800 foot sliding fall on yellow polypro fixed line during the FA I think of Warbler Ridge on Logan, and a fluke stopping them, and burying itself like 20 feet into the slope in doing so i dont own a fluke and the only reason id buy one would be to stick in on an ice axe to make a better air guitar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 I place three flukes on in one running belay of the exit chute of Gib Ledges. They were the only type of snow pro that might have held a fall and even then only one of them seemed really bomber to me. Still, I was glad to have them along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 ...In my 50 combined years of climbing experience I've never used one for real. I didn't think you were that old. Who/what are you combining? Oh, and I've never used one for real before either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted February 13, 2004 Author Share Posted February 13, 2004 my avatars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 AH! Of course! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 I have done some tests myself with a buddy to see how strong flukes are compared to an ice axe in a trench, a picket pounded downward, and a picket in a trench. In the right conditions, a fluke is about as strong as the come. We took long slides on steep snow (50 ft of rope out sitting slides with no brake) and we were stopped solid by the fluke. (It jerked a bit, but no more than you’d think and no more than with the pickets). We did the same with the fluke buried first (well placed) and with it basically dropped into the snow (not deep at all, barely in, but at the correct angle). It was really interesting watching the fluke drop deeper into the snow. Either way it held amazingly. We tried using three guys to pull, and couldn't budge it. In proper conditions I carry one (of course based on the route requirements). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 We once put the "student body" on a fluke, ten people, and couldn't put it out. That's about 1000 lbs peak force. I think there is a great deal of misunderstanding about flukes. I also think there is a lot of room for improvement in designs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 What would you do to improve the design? Curious.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 I'd have to do some experimenting to see what actually worked, but I would put a "drogue" disk on a cord to limit how far the fluke plunged, and to provide a way of recovering the fluke. The danger of this concept is that if the fluke is moving and can't go any further down, it might just prefer to pull out. Another thing one might do is improve the directional stability of the fluke by putting a longitudinal fin on it. There are tales of how they can hit ice layers and "skate" in different directions. A small spike on the tip would prevent this. There has been quite a bit of information published on ice screw testing, but not much on snow pro testing. That's not to say it hasn't been done. There's probably a whole load of proprietary snow pro data out there in the files of SMC, Yates, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 "A small spike on the tip would prevent this." And puncture your shell as you plod along walking across the glacier as it hangs off you pack and or harness....That would suck. But it sounds like it might limit the skating problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 You are probably right. I have now idea how likely the skating scenario really is. Pickets are better where that is likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 lots of people are using this fluke right now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordop Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 Think about this: The steeper the slope, the greater the possibility that the fluke can actually DIVE out the other side A guide once told me about the possibility of this, though I have never heard of a real scenario in which this happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrambled_legs Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 What do you mean out the other side?? Are you talking about hitting the rock underneath, or a placement where there is a thin snow capped ridge without any ground between the two slopes? Never heard of this one before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordop Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 Try to picture it: A fluke will dive when it is weighted, now when it is weighted on an angle, ie, not straight down, the fluke wants to get out towards the thing that pullin it, not go down. SO, steeper the inlcine, assuming that fluke is always placed 90* to horizontal, there is less snow holding it in for a given placement, less for it to move through and out. (nonscientist grasping at high school physics and math ) You'd hafta have pretty unconsolidated pow for this to occur, I'd imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pms Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 1972 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordop Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 Pickets are cooler cos you can sharpen em into wildlife spears I have never seen a convincing, working model of the mythical fluke/shovel conversion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 Huh? I thought flukes are supposed to be place at 30 degrees from the SLOPE, not the horizontal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordop Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 1972 PLease elaborate, twas before me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordop Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 Huh? I thought flukes are supposed to be place at 30 degrees from the SLOPE, not the horizontal. I'd imagine you'd rip that out in a big fall pretty easy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrambled_legs Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 Thats where you're wrong. A fluke is almost never placed 90 degrees to the horizontal. The cable that is attatched to the fluke, is set up to continuously pull the fluke at approx. a 45 degree angle down and towards the load if the load is horizontal on a flat snow field, the fluke will pull at a 45 degree angle down and in the direction of pull. In the same way, on a vertical snow field it will pull down (into the snow) and at a 45 degree angle toward the direction of pull (towards the climber). The only thing different on a flat snowfield and a veritcal one, is gravity. The Fluke isn't affected by gravity, only the direction of pull is. The direction of pull will remain horizontal to the snow regardless of the steepness. Imagine it is like an Ice Screw. You don't compare it to the steepness of ice when placing it, only the angle relative the surface of the ice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrambled_legs Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 I think 30 is right actually... It won't pull out easy. It'll pull down easy as it is pointing in the direction of pull but because of the angle is forced deeper, not ripped out. Try it sometime, they're freakin' bomber!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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