Cord for personal anchor?

[catbirdseat]

I haven't ever slipped on a belay ledge either, although I haven't been climbing nearly as long as you. It's just a trivial little trick that probably would never make a difference, but what the hey? I like to stack the odds in my favor whenever I can, especially when it doesn't cost anything.

[cracked]

Wouldn't ripping bartacks act like a Screamer?

[mattp]

Cracked:

There has been some past discussion of this point, and I'm not sure whether anybody "won" the ensuing argument. However, if you look at Thinker's drawing, you'd realize that the "screamer" we are talking about in this discussion is the primal scream death fall or the full-ropelength "screamer."

[Alyosha]

Behold, I unwittingly resurrected a monster.

 

I appreciate everyone giving their opinions. What I've heard/learned:

 

The controversy seems to center around whether to use a (separate) "personal anchor" when alpine/multi-pitch climbing. The people who don't use a (separate) personal anchor cite "less gear to carry/less bulk at your harness's power point" and "the rope is stronger and more cut-resistant than any personal anchor" as their main arguments. They girth-hitch a runner around their harness if they need to attach themselves to an anchor for rappelling. The people who do use a (separate) personal anchor cite "better redundancy" (less chance of accidentally unclipping the wrong person, according to Uncle Tricky). The people who use a (separate) personal anchor seem to generally like daisy chains (for adjustability), except for that maveric Daniel Smith, who says they're too bulky (the daisy chains, not the people), and uses perlon.

 

Along the way, many wonderful and weird tangential points have been raised (don't clip two loops of a daisy chain, clove hitch vs something on-a-hank -- eh... I mean a bight -- for anchor tie-in, how much force would a fall on a static "personal anchor" generate vs a fall on a section of the rope, etc.)

 

As to my original question, if I wanted to use a separate personal anchor, the only argument for perlon seems to be "less bulky than a daisy chain" by -- surprise -- none other than Daniel Smith.

 

I'm sure I'm missing a lot of what was said; even so, I feel quite enlightened. Thanks again to everyone who replied, and thanks to CBS for pointing me to the other thread.

 

 

 

 

Wonder how long it'll take before someone posts a bathroom pun on "enlightened..."

[Thinker]

Even though I've been climbing for many years, I still enjoy many of the threads here because people are willing to open up and talk about their opinions and experiences.

 

Exposure to this wide range of ideas can ulitmately equip us to solve a wider range of problems if we take the time to understand the underlying principles.

 

In other words, I learned a few things from this thread, too. Granted, there's nothing I'll run out and change tomorrow, but some of the ideas will help me evaluate risk better and give me alternatives when my default method is inadequate.

[catbirdseat]

Now go forth and climb stuff. Try different things, and figure out for yourself what you like best.

[Dustin_B]

This is what I do. I have tied an overhand knot in the last loop of the daisy close to the last set of bar tacks. I always use the last loop and, if I shorten, I use it in addition to whichever other loop I use. Because of the knot, even if all the intermediate tacks break, the loop will hold.

 

I do the same thing as CBS, although I honestly don't think it is that hard to put a twist in!!

 

Yeah, the overhand reduces the strength of the daisy by ~40%, blah, blah, blah.

[minx]

hmmmm...am i the only one who uses both? i usually clove hitch in with the rope and use a runner as a personal anchor.

[Peter_Puget]

You're a girl after my own heart there Minx. That's what I use too.

[minx]

well i feel a little better now. at least peter's with me on this. it takes care of that whole redunancy business w/o adding extra gear.

[RuMR]

You're a girl after my own heart there Minx. That's what I use too.

 

ummm peter...WHY DON'T YOU ANSWER YER PM'S??????????????

[Dustin_B]

hmmmm...am i the only one who uses both? i usually clove hitch in with the rope and use a runner as a personal anchor.

 

I use both too.

[Thinker]

hmmmm...am i the only one who uses both? i usually clove hitch in with the rope and use a runner as a personal anchor.

 

That's my preferred method, too.

 

But there are some circumstances that require a bit more flexibility.

[Stephen_Ramsey]

An interesting sidebar (speaking of using the lead rope to the max):

 

Somewhere I picked up the technique of clipping the biner I use for my ATC through both the belay loop and the loop formed by the rope/fig8 knot while belaying. It adds a bit of redundancy to the system with absolutely no extra gear.

This is in case your belay loop should break? I have to do that since I use a bod harness.

Catbird,

 

I'm confused. Can you please explain? I have an Alpine Bod harness and never knew it was necessary to clip the tie-in loop of the climbing rope. Would appreciate hearing your reasoning. Is this to provide redundancy in the event both straps (waist strap + lower strap) of the harness break? If that happens, I'm no longer attached to the belay anchor anyhow, so I'm screwed, right? Sorry, I'm confused.

 

Thanks,

Steve

Edited February 6, 2004 by Stephen_Ramsey

[cracked]

[catbirdseat]

I'm confused. Can you please explain? I have an Alpine Bod harness and never knew it was necessary to clip the tie-in loop of the climbing rope. Would appreciate hearing your reasoning. Is this to provide redundancy in the event both straps (waist strap + lower strap) of the harness break? If that happens, I'm no longer attached to the belay anchor anyhow, so I'm screwed, right? Sorry, I'm confused.

The reason you would do this is because if you don't the following will happen. Assuming you are belaying and tied in with the rope, if the leader takes a whipper, the biner could get pulled one way, while the tie in goes the other way on your harness. Conceivably, the leg loops could get torn off, or you might get squashed by the compression. The idea is to transmit the load of the fallen leader directly from your belay device to the anchor. The Alpine Bod harness is the only one for which this is necessary. If you have a belay loop, as the vast majority of harnesses to, you don't have to worry about this.

[Thinker]

 

That wasn't nice....this IS the NEWBIE section...

[dylan_taylor]

I'm confused. Can you please explain? I have an Alpine Bod harness and never knew it was necessary to clip the tie-in loop of the climbing rope. Would appreciate hearing your reasoning. Is this to provide redundancy in the event both straps (waist strap + lower strap) of the harness break? If that happens, I'm no longer attached to the belay anchor anyhow, so I'm screwed, right? Sorry, I'm confused.

The reason you would do this is because if you don't the following will happen. Assuming you are belaying and tied in with the rope, if the leader takes a whipper, the biner could get pulled one way, while the tie in goes the other way on your harness. Conceivably, the leg loops could get torn off, or you might get squashed by the compression. The idea is to transmit the load of the fallen leader directly from your belay device to the anchor. The Alpine Bod harness is the only one for which this is necessary. If you have a belay loop, as the vast majority of harnesses to, you don't have to worry about this.

Unless you wash your ropes and harnesses in Battery acid, they won't break. Your bod will not break while catching a monster lead fall unless the climber is leading on steel cable. Clipping the waist and leg loop with your belay locker is fine. Clipping your figure 8 (like its a belay loop) is fine. The maximum impact force allowed on the climber is 12 Kn, and there is friction in the 'biner, that puts the max load on the belayer in the ballpark of ~6-8Kn.

Redundancy is important, but it only realistically applies to how your rope is attached to the rock, you don't need to "back up" the rope itself.

[Bill_Simpkins]

Use the rope or a runner. No daiseys or cord.