Cord for personal anchor?

[Dru]

Tying in with a

 

Either tie in with a clove hitch, or use a daisy knowing its limitations, or get a METOLIUS PERSONAL ANCHOR SYSTEM that is fully rated on all loops.

 

Daisy pockets are only rated to 2kN. The daisy as a whole is rated equal to any other sling.

[cracked]

How do you clip in at a rappel anchor? I find adjusting tight clove hitches is a pain in the ass. I use a daisy backed up with the rope while belaying; I use a daisy alone when I'm hanging at a rap anchor. It's easy to adjust and convenient.

[Dru]

eh a real man can just hook an arm or leg thru the rap anchor its like "how do you unweight your rope long enough to untie the clove hitch on a hanging stance"

[arlen]

threads like this are part of a vast cordalette industry conspiracy.

[arlen]

You can make a Purcell Prussik Tie-In. This is a continuously adjustable personal anchor. I made one out of 6 mm perlon and tried it for a while. I like it for alpine climbing, but not for sport or crag climbing.

 

Why not?

[Billygoat]

CBS, I am thinking of body weight at a belay station. Which is how I read the intention of the poster of this thread. I would not use my daisy in such a way to statically load it and rip an anchor. If I wanted to rip an anchor I would do it with my 10.5 mm, Sheesh!

 

Dru, my daisys, that I bought from and are made by Mountain Tools are rated 4.8kn at the pockets and 22kn end to end. They weigh 78 g for a 44" one and cost $19.50 US.

 

Give me 10 carpenters and I will show you ten ways to frame a wall...

[Thinker]

It was mentioned by erik in the other thread that you can always girth hitch a shoulder length sling to your harness if you want a personal anchor. The sling does double duty and you save weight.

 

CBS, I almost posted a similar comment the other day, but then I realized that the perlon can often have double duty use, too. It can be used as a rap anchor or a sling, and is cheaper to leave than a spectra sling.

[catbirdseat]

There is a reason why we still use webbing for slings instead of perlon. It's cheaper and lighter. Although iceclimbers use it because it's better for vee threads.

 

9/16" climbspec 11.3kN 7.9g/ft $0.22/ft

6 mm perlon 8.0 kN 7.0 g/ft $0.35/ft

7 mm perlon 10.8 kN 9.1 g/ft $0.40/ft

[snoboy]

 

Clove hitch + biner.

 

Light, simple, adjustable, multipurpose.

 

Extra gear = 0.

[catbirdseat]

So I take it then you use Dru's manly man arm hook method on rappel?

 

I can think of at least one fellow who might be alive today had he used a personal anchor while rappelling.

[snoboy]

On rappel one sling, one biner.

 

Light, simple, adjustable, multipurpose.

 

Extra gear = 0.

[Rodchester]

I'm with Snoboy...rope on ascent (clove hitch and locking biner) and use a draw and a locker on descent. Thus no extra gear.

 

I have used daisy chains at times, but don't do so much anymore.

[lummox]

i have used a daisy made from 6mm cord for a long time. i take about 15 feet of the shizzle and tie overhand knots every 6 inches or so (which reduces tensile strength by about 40% so fuk off if you think i dont kno alread) and tie it to my leg loops and harness loop with a waterknot. it is handy for aid climbing. sometimes i might wear it on long rock routes or climbing ice. most of the time i dont. the daisy can make adjusting a butt bag easy. aint nothing wrong with using cord instead of webbing for attaching yourself to an anchor but i wouldnt use it only: tie in with the lead rope.

[Thinker]

An interesting sidebar (speaking of using the lead rope to the max):

 

Somewhere I picked up the technique of clipping the biner I use for my ATC through both the belay loop and the loop formed by the rope/fig8 knot while belaying. It adds a bit of redundancy to the system with absolutely no extra gear.

[catbirdseat]

An interesting sidebar (speaking of using the lead rope to the max):

 

Somewhere I picked up the technique of clipping the biner I use for my ATC through both the belay loop and the loop formed by the rope/fig8 knot while belaying. It adds a bit of redundancy to the system with absolutely no extra gear.

This is in case your belay loop should break? I have to do that since I use a bod harness.

[Thinker]

 

Either tie in with a clove hitch, or use a daisy knowing its limitations, or get ........

 

I think daisys are often used improperly and dangerously. For instance, how many of us know that any biner should clip only one loop on a daisy?

 

A common (and dangerous) practice I've seen is for a climber to clip the end loop and then shorten the daisy by clipping an additional intermediate loop to shorten the system. The proper (and only safe) way to shorten the daisy is to unclip the end loop and clip the intermediate loop by itself.

[mattp]

Thinker, are you saying this because if you clip two loops of the daisy without a twist between them, the biner will not be clipped in if you rip out all the bar tacks inbetween? Depending on your situation (for example if you may be belaying off the same anchor that you are clipped to via the daisy with maybe a rope back-up as has been suggested above) the advantage of having the tail of the daisy kept out of the way may offset the danger of using the daisy incorretly. Good call on the double-clipping, though -- its something to be aware of.

[Thinker]

Thinker, are you saying this because if you clip two loops of the daisy without a twist between them, the biner will not be clipped in if you rip out all the bar tacks inbetween? Depending on your situation (for example if you may be belaying off the same anchor that you are clipped to via the daisy with maybe a rope back-up as has been suggested above) the advantage of having the tail of the daisy kept out of the way may offset the danger of using the daisy incorretly. Good call on the double-clipping, though -- its something to be aware of.

 

Yes, exactly. I've never been comfortable with "the twist" on a daisy, primarily because I've never owned one. The handful of times I have used them I've always chosen to simplify it and 'clip only one.'

 

And since this is the newbies forum, I'll add a little more detail than I normally would. Here's a graphic that shows how you can prove this to your self (and practice the twist, too, I suppose.) Please pardon my lack of artistic skills:

 

 

Matt, could you provide a little more info on the "daisy twist"?

[mattp]

Here:

[Thinker]

So, in practice, how do you check that the 'twist' on your daisy chain is set up right? or do they all come that way from the manufacturers?

[mattp]

I don't think its complicated. If there is one twist or more between the two points of clippage, I believe you are "safe" from that standpoint (though if it is twisted and twisted back again, with the same number of wraps each direction, not). You're doing the right thing by just clipping once, though, because it is a good habit and you don't even have to check it.

[catbirdseat]

This is what I do. I have tied an overhand knot in the last loop of the daisy close to the last set of bar tacks. I always use the last loop and, if I shorten, I use it in addition to whichever other loop I use. Because of the knot, even if all the intermediate tacks break, the loop will hold.

[chucK]

Good thinkin' Catbird, I like that idea.

[catbirdseat]

I like it because I don't have to think so much and get my brain all twisted in knots.

[mattp]

That is a practical solution, Catbird, but I wonder a little bit just how serious the concern is in the first place. We trust bar tacked sewn runners even for the dreaded factor 2 leader fall and, while I realize that the bar tacks between the loops on a daisy are not as strong as th ose on a runner, and I'm sure you'll call up some statistic about how x% of the time they fail at .01KN or something. But the fact is I don't seem to fall of the belay ledge very often (never in 30 years of climbing). If I were to fall off, and fell 12 inches onto my daisy that was clipped what most of us would find uncomfortably long in the first place, how much shock would that generate? And I've caught a lot of falls, but the number times even then that I've put anything like a shock load on the anchors is very small. I belay from my waist so I tend to remember these events. Lastly, I know nobody who stands around on belay anchored only by the daisy. It is always backed up except that folks do it when making multiple rappels - but how could you put a shock load on your teather while standing at a rappel station? Like I said, you've got a good solution to the problem -- and I can think of no reason not to do as you suggest. Maybe I'll even go down in the basement and tie my daisy in a knot right now. I'm just thinking the problem may be slightly overstated.