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pope

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Holy s%$#! First Dwayner starts moving my way and now Pope has stolen my line! Watch out Pope, I could sue you for plagiarism. Interested parties can go back and see that about one year ago in the initial bolt arguments and note where I advocated the acknowledgement of the validity of TRs, direct civil contact and then if necessary discrete removal. I even noted that I had recently removed some myself. After a year it is nice to see you come around and jump on the wagon. Too bad we all had to suffer through a year of public invective and your disingenuous claims that you are not trying to incite controversy. Even the effortlessly cool Mattp had to rebuke you. You can work yourself to redemption now as long as you don’t get out of control or start your old habits again. As others have noted this is really a tempest in a teapot. The number of routes is really quite small and the impact not as great as is suggested by the volume of the argument. Think about it, these new bolts are just now getting noticed?

 

Here are just a few more comments Pope will be agreeing with sometime next year:

 

Rap placement or on lead placement it makes no difference. There is simply nothing edifying inherent in a particular style of climbing. The result that should be evaluated is not the subjective experience of the FA party but rather the physical nature of the route. For example, Is it over/under protected? Are the bolts placed in the best positions? Given a diminishing resource is it fair for someone to put up a poorly bolted route just because he is first? Because he was on lead? I say no. The question has never been the sport way or the trad way. It is, as I have repeatedly stated ,the sharing of a limited resource by a diverse group of people. EVERYONE must give. No group is better or more deserving than another.

 

I have climbed both trad and sport my hardest traditional lead was in fact harder than Pope’s hardest sport lead. I have climbed risky routes and super safe routes. What routes stick in my ? Oddly neither the risky nor the hard ones. I seem to remember the fun ones. Fun isn’t define by a number or a grade or a style it just is. All this stupid fighting and insults over the past year have done nothing but suck the fun out of climbing. Rather than sling unfair insults why not just start out and assume that even the guy doing something you hate is acting with the best of intentions.

 

PP

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quote:

Originally posted by Peter Puget:

There is simply nothing edifying inherent in a particular style of climbing.

Whoa. So, in your mind, a rap-bolted ascent is no more noteworthy than a ground-up ascent? Do you extend this to a free ascent being no more noteworthy than an aid ascent of the same climb?

Have you actually been on the sharp-end on a ground-up ascent? You might find it VERY enlightening (i.e. edifying). I think that there absolutely is a difference between ascent styles --inherently. Our sport glorifies style, and many pursue a (subjectively) pure one when they climb.

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For Sale-

 

3 foot and 6 foot crowbars with body harness attachment sling and holster.

 

Contact rayborbon@hotmail.com for prices. Will use the earned money to fund my trip to South America or Alaska [big Grin]

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Oh, and one more thing. Top roping is not in the same category as crack, alpine, bouldering, sport, etc. It is to learn to climb or to learn a route to lead it. Otherwise imagine someone saying: "no, you can't climb Everest! We've been looking at it for 100 years, afraid to approach. And you want to climb it?"

 

As to Pope, I really wonder what his true motives are. Getting old and not having any recognition? Or smth like that. He should first remove the bolts he himself put up, if they are "so ugly"!

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Def: (Websters) Edify: To instruct and improve esp. in moral and religious knowledge.

 

Quote:”Whoa. So, in your mind, a rap-bolted ascent is no more noteworthy than a ground-up ascent?”

Answer: It all depends. The vast majority of FA regardless of style are simple unremarkable. But you conclusion does not follow what I said.

 

Quote:”Do you extend this to a free ascent being no more noteworthy than an aid ascent of the same climb?”

 

Depends. For example someone aiding via hooks up Bloodlust at Squamish would be more noteworthy than a free ascent. In general most ascents are simply not noteworthy.

 

Quote:”Have you actually been on the sharp-end on a ground-up ascent? You might find it VERY enlightening (i.e. edifying). I think that there absolutely is a difference between ascent styles --inherently. Our sport glorifies style, and many pursue a (subjectively) pure one when they climb.”

 

I never said there were not differences. And yes I have I have actually placed bolts on lead. Once so far out from the prior one that I was too scared to climb it again when I went back to add a new pitch! The nature of the climbing was not sufficient to “ instruct and improve esp. in moral and religious knowledge.”

 

People are free to pursue any style they wish. The fact that they choose one goal does not diminish mine or someone else’s if we have chosen another.

 

It is impossible for me to evaluate the quality of your experience. I am completely able to think that a trembling 5.6 leader on a well protected traditional or even sport climb is more “out there” than me when I lead that pitch I described earlier (the one that I chickened out on later) In otherwords (yours if I understand you correctly)his/her experience is far more noteworthy than mine.

 

[ 04-18-2002, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

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Peter Puget,

you're coming from such a foreign paradigm, I can't relate at all.

But thanks for the definition of edify. And to think that I had equated "enlighten" with "To instruct and improve esp. in moral and religious knowledge." I think I'll have to get another edition of Webster's dictionary because the one I got has "edify" and "enlighten" as synonyms.

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top roping is not leading. the only reason not to eventually lead an established TR is if it has *no* natural pro and it is too close to another route to justify adding bolts. just because some gapewad bubly like myself* threw a TR on it and flailed 10 yrs ago does not mean it would not be a good lead route.

 

* who is gonna rap bolt this WEEKEND [big Grin] on a never-before TRed route [big Grin] and scub all sorts of moss and lichen off [big Grin] and prune a few tree branches too [big Grin]

 

[Mad] kill destroy environment green is bad [Mad]

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quote:

Traditionally, the style in which the first ascent was done dictates future ascents (i.e., going from nailing to placing clean gear). This, in a sense, gives the first ascensionist some sort of ownership.

I understand and even abide by this, what I'm saying is that tradition is getting beat up by people that are bolt happy and saying that it is wrong won't stop it. Respect dictates that you leave it alone but that isn't always the case. Even if I'm not for it, traditions change.

 

That's why I suggested that some crags be left for trad and some for sport. The question is who will decide this.

 

I also agree that bolt hangers on the rock will get the Land Managers twitching. Like I said, I'm not for bolting or retro-bolting, but going out and chopping the lines only to have them re-bolted is going to get just as much or more attention.

 

It seems inevitable that the people who control the land will try and regulate this at some point unless the general climbing community can agree on the crags to bolt or leave alone.

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quote:

Originally posted by Peter Puget:

....and now Pope has stolen my line! Watch out Pope, I could sue you for plagiarism. Interested parties can go back and see that about one year ago in the initial bolt arguments and note where I advocated the acknowledgement of the validity of TRs, direct civil contact and then if necessary discrete removal. I even noted that I had recently removed some myself. After a year it is nice to see you come around and jump on the wagon. Too bad we all had to suffer through a year of public invective and your disingenuous claims that you are not trying to incite controversy. (blah blah blah) I have climbed both trad and sport my hardest traditional lead was in fact harder than Pope’s hardest sport lead.

PP

The validity of a top-rope is hardly an original idea of yours or mine, although if you're short on original thoughts, you're welcome to take credit. Contacting a retro-bolter to establish a dialogue? Oddly enough, I attempted to do this within one week of my first anti-bolt post. I'm pretty sure this happened before you "published" your brilliant ideas one year ago.

 

Christ, this was not going to be another thread in which I argued about bolting, access, etc. Just a question or two, Mr. P.P. Firstly, how can you hope to extend equal access to all climbers? Doesn't climbing limit access to some groups by its very nature? What exaggerated modifications are you willing to make to the rock to guarantee this access to "everybody"? Also, how does putting bolts into an established TR make it more accessible to anybody? Finally, where do aesthetics fit into your equation?

 

One more thing: where do you get your information about Pope's hardest sport lead? My hardest clip-up was said to be 5.12b/c, this being accomplished without aid or falls on my first attempt. I haven't attempted anything harder, although I "flashed" 5.12d (Equinox, Joshua Tree) on TR (felt about as scary as sport climbing).

 

You know, Peter, you do a damn good job of annoying the hell out of me.

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Peter Puget wrote: "First Dwayner starts moving my way..."

 

Dwayner replies: Don't flatter yourself, pal, it must be an illusion. Either our conclusions overlap or you've come around to agree with me. My stances tend to be pretty consistent. I'm open to changing my mind on several subjects but I haven't heard much lately that would cause me to do so...and certainly not from you. [Roll Eyes]

 

Have a nice day, amigo!

aloha, Dwayner

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Pee Pee,

 

Your pretty arrogant and funny.

 

Man I think you are on the slide side. Just sprayin obviously. You climb hard but now you are talkin hard too. I dont care...

 

Are you mad? Does REI fund your bolting projects? Maybe I should make fun of you next time I see you.......

 

No time for rap bolting here. It's pretty damn boring from the looks of it.

 

Do you climb mountains and ice climb any more? [big Drink]

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This is Gaper_#1,

 

I think I can find so many crack climbs out there on granite it is fun. I climbed a 5.3 redpoint today and had more fun than most of these dorks.

 

Peter Puget, how many 5.3's have you redpointed from your computer today? I never set up topropes any more. Climbing without knowledge and prior experience fulfills the true and original meaning of climbing (adventure). Your excuses are weak for bolting on rappel.

 

Too bad you were too scared to finish your project. At least you learned that you are not man enough or strong enough as others that might go and climb them. Too bad you scarred the rock with your bolts in doing so. Hopefully someone will climb your contrived non line project some day. Until then let it be known that the Uli Gaper is wiser and stays where the climbing is cracks and good.

 

Gaper_#1 Has spoken. [Cool]

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Gaper, you have displayed a profundity of wisdom. These days, P.P. is preoccupied with dissembling intelligence and winning wet-T-shirt contests with his climbing partner Sexy Chocolate Bar.

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quote:

Originally posted by scott harpell:

Gaper_#1 Has spoken. [[Cool]]

 

Hmm...who could that be? avatar anyone?

This is Gaper_#1,

 

I am Uli Gaper from Gapeland. I have lived in Germany and abroad. I climbed a 5.3 today how about you?

 

Avatar is my middle name.

 

Gaper_#1 Has spoken. [Cool]

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quote:

What exaggerated modifications are you willing to make to the rock to guarantee this access to "everybody"?

He's gonna make all of the approaches wheelchair accessible AND bolt the ramps every six inches.

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quote:

Originally posted by beefcider:

quote:

What exaggerated modifications are you willing to make to the rock to guarantee this access to "everybody"?

He's gonna make all of the approaches wheelchair accessible AND bolt the ramps every six inches.

This is Gaper_#1,

 

He better be strong to rap (electric or gas drill) bolt in the mountains. I dont see too many bolts there [Confused]

 

Too far to hike in the the drill I assume.

 

Peter Puget, how many times does your bosch drill touch the mountains? When it does I will join Pope and others in Gaper Bolt removal on monumental scales. Although I am worried I am not strong enough to remove them. Perhaps I will supply a belay to stronger partners in Gapeland to remove your bolts when necessary. A 5.3 redpointer may be weak in the arms but the soul is strong enough to keep our mountains clean of dirty unnecessary rap bolting.

 

There were no bolts on my 5.3 today. I repointed after multiple crux falls on the Uli Slab [Cool]

 

Gaper_#1 Has spoken. [Cool]

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quote:

Originally posted by beefcider:

quote:

What exaggerated modifications are you willing to make to the rock to guarantee this access to "everybody"?

He's gonna make all of the approaches wheelchair accessible AND bolt the ramps every six inches.

Listen.....I'm feeling a little weak in the wrists these days.....um, would anybody be offended if I were to.....Gee, I can't believe I'm about to say it....would it be appropriate to cut a couple of big-assed buckets right in the middle of the crux on that new route...(Steven, what did they call that new despo?) Oh, yes, on TECHNO-CRIMP-DADDY-F*#CK-FEST? You see, I think it's so elitest to require an old charmer like myself to be fit enough to climb it in its natural state. We've got great protection on that route now, which certainly makes it safe enough, but to be fair, to make it the kind of route everybody can appreciate it, why not just carve some buckets? People who don't wish to use them can just reach past.....is there something wrong with my suggestion?

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This is Gaper_#1,

 

I need buckets to climb. Therefore I travel to Midway on Castle Rock and the Great Gaper Slab at Index for training. I almost redpointed this Uli Classic at Index today. What were those railroad ties for [Confused]

 

I put in 2 hexes on my belay which were fine. Does Peter Puget say that we should have some new bolts there for safety [Roll Eyes] ?

 

I say tell Peter Puget to put bolts in the middle of the WI1 Ice climbs for belays that I did this winter to make it safer [Roll Eyes] I struggled madly up these routes without prior knowledge and almost took falls on the Wi1 curtain.

 

Can that drill work on those ice climbs too [Roll Eyes]

 

Gaper_#1 Has spoken. [Cool]

 

[ 04-18-2002, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: Gaper_#1 ]

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quote:

Originally posted by rayborbon:

For Sale-

 

3 foot and 6 foot crowbars with body harness attachment sling and holster.

 

Contact rayborbon@hotmail.com for prices. Will use the earned money to fund my trip to South America or Alaska
[big Grin]

6 foot nail puller for doing concrete form work, weighs about 25 pounds and indestructable.

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Jon,

I dont kow if you have ever yanked bolts. It is pretty much ahrd work. I would be interested but skeptical about a nail puller. I remeber tweaking the crowbar good last time..

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I got one. It's called a Dayton bar. And it is boss and is IN-DE-FUCKIN-STRUCTIBLE. Working now on acquiring some less macho but more effective tools.

[big Grin][big Grin][big Grin][big Grin][big Grin][big Grin][big Grin][big Grin]

 

[ 04-18-2002, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: Retrosaurus ]

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This is Gaper_#1,

 

I hate work. I like to climb. I would like to climb Midway tomorrow on redpoint. I fell in the first pitch recently.

 

Perhaps that is too easy for Peter Puget [Confused]

 

At least I did not rap bolt it. Next I think I will go after mountain routes which Pubic has not destroyed.

 

Gaper_#1 Has Spoken. [Cool]

 

[ 04-19-2002, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: Gaper_#1 ]

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quote:

Originally posted by rayborbon:

Jon,

I dont kow if you have ever yanked bolts. It is pretty much ahrd work. I would be interested but skeptical about a nail puller. I remeber tweaking the crowbar good last time..

Hard work? I'm pretty sure building multilevel parking garages and tiltup warehouses is harder than pulling a few measly bolts. I think it's called a Burke bar (probably the same as Dayton), and like Mitch said this thing is absolutely INDESTRUCTABLE. If you could break one of these things I'd get you and Fred couch dances and a keg of Guiness [big Drink]

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"If people start ripping out bolts it's going to get noticed by the officials who run the public lands."

-beef cider

 

well, dont you think the land managers and officials are going to notice when there are stainless steel hangers littered all over the cliff face? I would be willing to bet that land managers would prefer less bolts rather than more bolts (or none at all). It seems that most of us are in agreement though (the rational ones anyways) that there are some routes that can and should be restored. obviously there are some routes that must have bolts to be safely led, but i think the question that must be asked before placing a bolt is, "is this bolt necessary and does it protect the integrity of the route and its moves?" if that question is used as a prerequisite to bolting, i think that bolting would steadily decline. $.02

 

[ 04-18-2002, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: scott harpell ]

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