Avalanche: Harsh lessons

[Mtguide]

For clarification:

 

Mtn. Madness & Pro Guiding were teaching/leading a Mounties Ski Leadership group & did not lead the snowshoer into the backcountry. They were leading a group of well equipped skiers and set the track. Just because you see someone do something does not mean you follow. Hikers walk around climbing sites all the time. If they decide to solo something that looks easy and fall and die should the last climber there get sued. Trails are everywhere. COME ON! That is ridiculous!

It was horrible what happened but doing things in the outdoors has risks and consequences. There is a certain amount of responsibility on your part if you are going out there. Also...people with formal training and a ton of experience can generally take on bigger objectives and manage the amount of risks a LITTLE better than under-equipped novice's...duh! That's why guiding is a profession... Someone who has taken the time to take that many courses and spend that much time out there has the equivalent training as a doctor or lawyer in their profession. I know I cannot perform heart surgery...

 

Your point is well taken.I've heard it said that an expert climber or extreme skier on an extreme route can actually be safer than a novice on an easy route,due to the advanced level of skill,conditioning,preparedness and experience.

[Figger_Eight]

I'm not sure if I can agree Reudi was practicing "textbook" safe travelling techniques. That accident is a good case study on the balance between cycling through big groups and taking a more conservative approach. Unfortunately it was a tragic way to find out which way the scales tipped that day.

[mattp]

I've heard it said that an expert climber or extreme skier on an extreme route can actually be safer than a novice on an easy route,due to the advanced level of skill,conditioning,preparedness and experience.

 

It is certainly true that one who knows about avalanches and how to avoid them can more safely travel through dangerous terrain than one who lacks that knowledge. It is also true that "extreme" terrain is generally going to be steeper and less likely to build up a dangerous slab in the first place, so this would also add support to your statement. However, I'd have to point out that those who study the matter generally do so because they plan to put themselves in harm's way on a regular basis. Also, even the "extreme" mixed route probably has some lower angle open terrain on the approach and deproach (the most common slope angle for triggering avalanches is something like 30 degrees I think). My point is, don't think that you can get training and experience and then you'll be one of those "experts" who can ski and climb safely. I believe it used to be the case (may still be) that avalanche deaths were most common among backcountry skiers who were technically strong skiers and had studied avalanche conditions.

[forrest_m]

It might be easy to conclude that a beacon is the same sort of safety device as a climbing rope-- but it's NOT.

 

i was talking with my wife last night, and came up with the analogy that a beacon is like having an unreliable parachute in an airplane. it might help you, as a last resort, but it wouldn't make the idea of being in a plane crash more appealing. in contrast, a rope is generally reliable tool, used virtually every time you go climbing. i've never used my beacon in earnest, and i hope i never have to try.

[Thinker]

My admiration for the dedication of SAR grows every year.

 

My housemate was part of the SAR crew searching for the Source Lake victim on Sat. Despite the unstable slopes and frequent sloughing, they put in long hours probing, digging, and working with dogs in an area that most of them would never have gone on their own volition that day.

[fern]

I feel sad for those people who died. Being buried in an avalanche is a deeply sucky experience.

[Mtguide]

Thanks for clarifying that point,regarding skiers in particular,as well as the risk zone on climb approaches.It reminds me that Alex Lowe's tragic death occurred in just such a circumstance,albeit in an arena of much greater scale than anything we encounter here in the Pac.NW.

 

And it's absolutely true,both in the past and today,that highly skilled backcountry skiers incur the greatest risk,and in actual fact,the most incidents and fatalities due to avalanches.This is further confirmed by figures from accident reports that the demographic for avalanche victims is predominantly white males 17 to 38 yrs.old,with the numbers of women victims in the same age range beginning to show an increase in the last 15 years.

 

[Dru]

In the last 5 yrs or so in BC the greatest number of avalanche deaths have been among hikers, snowmobilers, and teenage kids on school ski trips

[vegetablebelay]

I feel sad for those people who died. Being buried in an avalanche is a deeply sucky experience.

 

True, true....

[Mtguide]

I was unaware of that.That sounds like an excellent reason for more signage at the trailheads to dangerous areas,and some kind of more serious educational effort to reach these groups of people.

 

[Dru]

you mean like teaching snowmobilers how to read

[not_a_climber]

Considering that this trailhead is one of the more popular and easily accessed winter trailheads there should probably be some kind of warning sign at the trailhead about avalanche danger. Is there one? Anyone who watches the evening news for a few years but never takes a step in the mountains can come to the realization that this area is potentially dangerous.

 

As far as avalanch beacons go, why not, if you are the REI, post a sign in the area where the beacons are sold telling when your next avalanche awareness class is (maybe they do this, already)?

[iain]

Despite the unstable slopes and frequent sloughing, they put in long hours probing, digging, and working with dogs in an area that most of them would never have gone on their own volition that day.

Well, that's just not bright! If instability persists it must be controlled. Entering an area where you would not go otherwise to fetch somebody who is most likely dead is not a good choice.

[Figger_Eight]

There's a warning sign on the trail in from the Alpental lot...which is the same as the backcountry skier's exit. I don't think there's one at the trailhead proper.

[cman]

cracked said:

8/123 is significantly better odds than 50/50.

What part of 20% (not 30%) of all avalanche victims die of trauma(that's you head getting caved in, massive bleeding - things a beacon don't help) didn't you read?

 

At best that means you've got a roughly 1:5 chance of dying - no matter what safety equipment you have. That's worse odds than Russian Roulette.

 

You should be saying that 20% of avalanche deaths are caused by trauma. This not the same as saying that 20% of people caught in an avalanche die from trauma, because that is not true.

 

Indeed, of the 123 skiers extricated within 15 min, only 8 were dead and, moreover, only 2 had died of asphyxia (extrication times 10 and 15 min), whereas the remaining 6 skiers had all sustained fatal injuries during descent of the avalanche.

 

as you can see from these figures (see link previously) of the 123 avy victims only 4.9% died from trauma.

These figures also show that if you have equipment, ie a newer digital beacon, and travel with skilled individuals your chances of surviving an accident, yes even perfect people have accidents, increase dramatically.

Granted it may not be possible to rescue someone from a large avy in 15 mins, thus lowering survival rates. But without any beacon/safety equipment it would likely be hours for SAR to show up and by then survival rates are near zero.

Arguing that safety equip is useless is ridiculus. All the statistics show that the shorter the burial time the higher the survival rate, and the only way to shorten the burial time, outside of luck, is safety equip.

[Norman_Clyde]

Does anyone know which side of the valley the victims were on? That is, were they on the standard W. side winter trail, or the E. side summer Snow Lake Trail? Because this has been reported as happening on the "Snow Lake Trail" I have been assuming it was on the E. side, which crosses its first large slide path less than half a mile from the trailhead. Indeed, for that reason I thought most people avoided this trail entirely in the winter.

[cman]

a good link on the failures of traditional avy courses

avalanche avoidance

[Mtguide]

you mean like teaching snowmobilers how to read

 

[minx]

Does anyone know which side of the valley the victims were on? That is, were they on the standard W. side winter trail, or the E. side summer Snow Lake Trail? Because this has been reported as happening on the "Snow Lake Trail" I have been assuming it was on the E. side, which crosses its first large slide path less than half a mile from the trailhead. Indeed, for that reason I thought most people avoided this trail entirely in the winter.

 

it was on the winter trail.

[minx]

i was told by someone from the ski patrol/SAR that depending on the year 47%-52% of all avalanche rescues involve snowmobile riders. i don't have that stat so don't ask. i trust the person in question.

[Kiwi]

I always thought snowshoeing was a pretty benign recreational activity.

[cj001f]

These figures also show that if you have equipment, ie a newer digital beacon, and travel with skilled individuals your chances of surviving an accident, yes even perfect people have accidents, increase dramatically.

Granted it may not be possible to rescue someone from a large avy in 15 mins, thus lowering survival rates. But without any beacon/safety equipment it would likely be hours for SAR to show up and by then survival rates are near zero.

Arguing that safety equip is useless is ridiculus. All the statistics show that the shorter the burial time the higher the survival rate, and the only way to shorten the burial time, outside of luck, is safety equip.

Cman-

I suggest you look at the following study:

 

http://www.bcaccess.com/pdf/CompanionRescue_Atkins.pdf

 

It'd be good to remember that a pro(well practiced) with an analog can find someone roughly as quick as an amateur with a digital beacon.

 

The odds are alot worse than 5% that you'll die if caught in an avalanche.

 

I'm not trying to argue safety equipment is useless - but bugs analogy of a faulty parachute is correct. You are playing Russian Roulette if you think you can get caught in an avalanche and survive.

[Figger_Eight]

Jumping on a pogo stick is a benign recreational activity...unless you're doing so under an avalanche slope.

[iain]

...or on a land mine! badum ching!