where's the love for the Mounties?

[girlclimber]

just out of curiosity, why does everyone on this site make fun of the Mountaineers? i'd be interested to know how many of you have in fact taken a course offered by them

[EWolfe]

girlclimber said:

just out of curiosity, why does everyone on this site make fun of the Mountaineers?

 

Because it's easy to.

[klenke]

Where's the love?

To love thy Mounties one must love thyself.

[AlpineK]

I grew up skiing at the mounty lodges. I took the basic climbing course and dropped out of the intermediate climbing course as a teen. I think the group does a number of good things, but the vast majority of interactions I and other climbers have with mounty groups make them look like a bunch of clueless and anoying idiots who deserve lots of abuse.

Edited November 24, 2003 by AlpineK

[klenke]

AlpineK said:I think the group does a number of good things, but the vast majority of interactions I and other climbers have with mounty groups make them look lie a bunch of clueless and anoying idiots who deserve lots of abuse.

Uh-oh, here we go again: another Mountie bashing thread.

[AlpineK]

FUCK THE MOUNTIES

 

[EWolfe]

It's:

 

Mounty Sprayathon's Flaming Circus

Edited November 24, 2003 by MisterE

[Dave_Schuldt]

So girlclimber, are you a mountie?

[girlclimber]

if only i could be that good

[Metalhead_Mojo]

[Beck]

I am not a member, but the mountaineers as a group is amazing! Look at the diversity- the book publishing arm (impressive) the square dances and the sailing trips, the socials and the clubhouse.

 

What isn't impressive is the danagerous learning curve embodied by the climbing arm of the Mountaineers that churns out a lot of inexperienced "climb leaders" and "instructors" that in turn disinform and endanger others out in the mountains. I have heard dozens of tales of disasters undertaken when a leader or instructor is sooo clueless. Like some idiot instructor who couldn't figure out why his boots froze when he left them out in the vestibule, or "i didn't have enough pro(while teaching a basic course) so I decided to run it out, then I peeled, and decked and broke my ankles" stories from the perps themselves. I have seen this stuff all over the Cascades. Lost groups of mounties wandering the volcanoes in the fog. Groups asking if i had a cell phone to report an accident when they were literally twenty minutes from the cars if they hustled.

 

No offense to the mounties, but two years of experience doesn't make people qualified to mentor others in the mountains and be instructors.

the mounties should stop that shit in my opinion.

 

[EWolfe]

To try and answer your question in a reasonable manner:

 

There ae basically two approaches to learning to climb, IMO.

 

1. Take a Mountaineers (or other) class, and learn the safety, procedural and potential error and danger elements of climbing, then, incrementally develop your skills on the rock or mountain under close supervision. The assumption here is generally that people are accident prone.

 

2. Find an experienced climber and go out and follow a shitload of climbs, boulder, learn by trial, error, and the loose supervision of a "non-professional" instructor. The attitude here is that people are generally accident-resistant.

 

Those of us in the second group feel strongly that ours is the best way to learn. Additionally, we feel that the first holds back many potentially good climbers by the fear that is instilled. We observe that many epics occur (within the first group) because solutions get lost in procedure, large groups are cumbersome, and the group leaders are over-cautious and reactionary.

 

Hope that helps!

[Dave_Schuldt]

girlclimber said:

if only i could be that good

 

Too bad you have such a low opinion of yourself.

[Necronomicon]

Beck said:

I am not a member, but the mountaineers as a group is amazing! Look at the diversity- the book publishing arm (impressive) the square dances and the sailing trips, the socials and the clubhouse.

 

What isn't impressive is the danagerous learning curve embodied by the climbing arm of the Mountaineers that churns out a lot of inexperienced "climb leaders" and "instructors" that in turn disinform and endanger others out in the mountains. I have heard dozens of tales of disasters undertaken when a leader or instructor is sooo clueless. Like some idiot instructor who couldn't figure out why his boots froze when he left them out in the vestibule, or "i didn't have enough pro(while teaching a basic course) so I decided to run it out, then I peeled, and decked and broke my ankles" stories from the perps themselves. I have seen this stuff all over the Cascades. Lost groups of mounties wandering the volcanoes in the fog. Groups asking if i had a cell phone to report an accident when they were literally twenty minutes from the cars if they hustled.

 

No offense to the mounties, but two years of experience doesn't make people qualified to mentor others in the mountains and be instructors.

the mounties should stop that shit in my opinion.

 

"...and you can see that Beck takes it up the pooper from the Mounites at work. Let's listen in as he slobbers all over their balls some more..."

[iain]

Beck said:Lost groups of mounties wandering the volcanoes in the fog.

nice imagery

[CPOly]

I took the Basic Climbing Course through the Mounties this past year as an introduction to climbing. Unfortunately this was before I knew about CC as a resource for partners/mentors to learn basics of climbing. I guess the course is a good way to gain a basic understanding of the principles and techniques involved in mountaineering if you can't read. Otherwise all of the information taught is available in various books (ie Freedom of the Hills). The class was a little too slow paced for me, but it's intended to accomodate working adults who don't have all the time and resources available that a 23 year old do. It was obvious also that there were many in the class that didn't take the time to really learn what was being taught. I'm talking basics like knots and belaying technique. This made me very apprehensive towards roping up with some of these people and I didn't hesitate in voicing this opinion towards them. I am very passionate and enthusiastic about climbing and there's no way that I could expect others in the class to have the same enthusiasm towards it. This is probably why I'll never take another course through them. I prefer to climb with others who have a similar idea of climbing. Anyways, that's just my experience/opinion.

[Thinker]

CPOly said:

I took the Basic Climbing Course through the Mounties this past year as an introduction to climbing. <snipped> This made me very apprehensive towards roping up with some of these people and I didn't hesitate in voicing this opinion towards them. <snipped>

 

In my opinion, that's one of the best things you can learn from a big climbing class like that. The exposure to the people who just don't get it is valuable on its own, and taking a stand against roping up with climbers you judge dangerous or incompetent is a lesson well learned early on in your climbing career. While the club classes do teach knots, technique, safety, routefinding, etc., it is still up to each individual to actually learn and excell at those skills, and many really do.

 

IMHO, those classes are a great way to learn the very basics and meet people who have the same level of drive as you do...be it little or lots. But, 'graduates' shouldn't be fooled into thinking they've got the sport wired. Death is forever.

[Jason_Martin]

Just to play devils advocate...

 

There are a lot of people out there who have learned how to climb from mentors outside the mounties circle who only have a couple years of experience and purport to be experts. There are a lot of people out there who have many years of climbing experience who really don't know what they're doing either. And learning from a book alone is simply not enough for most people. How many can say that as a whole, when they were in school they learned more from their books than from their teachers?

 

There are many proficient climbers out there who never took a class from anybody. But I believe that those who are truly proficient that learned this way are the minority, not the majority of those who climb.

 

So it seems that both avenues present a bit of a dilemma. One could take a mounties class and learn from someone with only a year or two of experience or one could learn from someone outside the circle whose skills may be just as suspect.

 

The only way to be truly sure that you are getting professional instruction is to take a class from a reputable guide service. Unfortunately this is expensive, but at least you'll learn how to do things the right way the first time around.

 

Jason

[Thinker]

to good guides that take the time to educate their clients.

 

to jobs that allow a person the financial luxury to learn from those guides.

[Al_Pine]

Mounties is pretty good instruction for the price (cheap). Some of the "instructors" are know-nothing dickhead powertripper dudes, and some are way cool. Try to figure that out and get in the good intructor groups at the breakouts. Of course, if you're a total newbie, it might be difficult to figure out who is the know-nothing. It is usually possible to tell who the powertripper dudes are though.

 

However, a far superior way to learn about the dangerous world of climbing is to hook up with some anonymous person on the internet. It is especially good if their internet persona displays a tendency toward substance or alcohol abuse. That way you can easily convince them to waste their day teaching your newbie ass the basics of climbing safely by just waving a little dope or booze in front of their nose. Hell, if you offer enough beer, they'll probalby even cart your ass up there.

Edited November 24, 2003 by Al_Pine

[scrambler]

Seems you either love'em or hate'em.

 

Me, I don't try to lump everyone into one faceless mass called Mounties. I know some good people in the organization as individuals.

 

But some people feel as Groucho Marx once said, "I wouldn't want to belong to an organization that would have me as a member."

 

[Dave_Schuldt]

Ah yes, the age old debate.

[Jason_Martin]

Scrambler has a point about the mounties. There are always good people around and there are always bad. Certainly some instructors are going to be great and some are not.

 

Jason