Developing a sport route

[JayB]

Definitely digging the absence of poinltess anti-bolting tirades on this thread.

[Off_White]

Mattp: are you talking about Taperbolts? I think those are the ones with the helicoil type arrangement. They're as easy to remove as 5 piece Rawls, and I think they're trickier to place, though that's only heresay, since I haven't placed any. I've used the 5-piece on sandstone and granite, I did have a couple act funny as you described in the sandstone, which I figured was due to poor cleaning and/or a weaker layer 6" in. That kind of bolts are you using at Darrington these days?

[mattp]

We've been using the studs almost exclusively.

 

Yes, I think the "taperbolts" might be the ones I am referring to. One drawback is that they are not as easy to get, and I really have little experience with them and I'm not sure just how much my buddy has used them in field situations. I watched him place one, once, and it was a little clumsy starting it into the hole but otherwise it seemed OK.

[Off_White]

By "studs" you mean the split shank contraction bolts, like the old button heads but now 3/8" diameter and with a nut on the end? I think they're okay for granite, though I've heard concerns about weakness at the split shank, but I couldn't imagine they'd be desirable in anything soft like sandstone or tuff. I guess I like the principle of expansion more than contraction.

[ketch]

mattp ; i think that your on the right track in revisiting the 5 piece idea. I recall that some of the early kind were a bit more challenging than the rawls. I think the big issue here is how many of the old studs have you tried to replace once they get real manky. It's a long way off but the nature of a bolted route is that it's there for a long time

[EWolfe]

The trick to the 5-piece is to really clean out the hole. Even a litle dust will keep them from biting.

 

Also, I was using 1/2" bolts, so the range is probably exponentially greater than 3/8".

 

The taper bolts sound cool, and, yeah, I have had some of the bolts and hangers taken, due to the ease of removal.

 

Jay, it's true what you say!

 

 

[Dru]

Off_White said:

the split shank contraction bolts, like the old button heads but now 3/8" diameter and with a nut on the end? I think they're okay for granite

 

Even cheap bastards like Robin Barley stopped placing these babies at Squamish - because they test out MUCH WEAKER than expansion bolts even in good granite.

 

They are only a smidgen cheaper.

 

I got a bunch of them I use for aid FA only in remote spots most people will never repeat. "adventure bolts" and one-shot bail anchors basically.

[mattp]

By "studs" I mean wedge anchors, not split shanks. I don't know anybody who regularly uses split shanks. I have removed and replaced lots of them, but I don't recall ever actually placing one. Unless bolting on lead, perhaps, I see little justification for using them -- even then it would be questionnable in my mind because you could place wedge anchors just about as easily but the simplicity of the split shank is a plus and that is why I do carry a few once in a while, for the purposes that Dru described. (I suppose that if you are committed to coming back and replacing them, the easier removal of the split shank might be a plus.)

 

The difficulty in removing the wedge anchors is definitely an issue when it comes to replacing or removing them. This is why I have periodically been posting inquiries on this forum asking about devices/systems for removal that may be more portable than a 5 foot "love bar."

[Peter_Puget]

The use of Taper bolts s/b discouraged as they are very difficult to place correctly. When not placed correctly they can look and feel good but still be very weak. Plus they can be easily screwed up by future tightening. Don't use them! The bolt Mattp's friend may be talking about might be an improved version of the old Taperbolt. I have place a couple of Taperbolts in the way distant past and everything seemed ok but people I know and respect some of whom where once Taperbolt advocates turned me against them. LInk I just found

 

 

I have replaced some 5 piece non stainless and found that sometimes probably due to corrosion they cannot be removed with a wrench. Perhaps this a result of Puget Sound dampness and would not happen frequently in drier areas, but it happens enough that the removability of these bolts is not a given.

 

Matt I would also note that wedge anchors are better on lead because you can drive one in and rest on it before tightening it up. I must confess that I have only place a few 3/8" on lead and try like hell to use smaller sizes but I am down to 3 1/4" and about 30 5/16"

 

PP

 

 

PS Mattp I hope you are not at work like me!

[EWolfe]

mattp said:

By "studs" I mean wedge anchors,not split shanks. I dn't know anybody who regularly uses split shanks. I have removed and replaced lost of them, but I don't recall ever placing one. Unless bolting on lead, perhaps, I see little justification for using them -- even then it would be highly questionnable in my mind because you could place wedge anchors just about as easily. (I suppose that if you are committed to coming back and replacing them, the easier removal of the split shank might be a plus.)

 

The difficulty in removing the wedge anchors is definitely an issue when it comes to replacing or removing them. This is why I have periodically been posting inquiries on this forum asking about devices/systems for removal that may be more portable than a 5 foot "love bar."

 

Maybe they will develop a "bolt-vaccuum" along the same lines as the "bolt gun" in "Cliffhanger"

[mattp]

I called my buddy and he says that the bolts I mentioned here are in fact not called taper bolts. They are called Hilti Coil anchors. He says in his opinion they are just as easy to install as a wedge anchor. Taper bolts have a led sleeve at the end, and he's not really into those either.

[Dru]

"oops I just dropped a 'Hilti coil' while bolting this route on lead"

[Dru]

Here is a photo of my new drilling set up in action! It is a bit heavier but drills very nice holes. See attachment.

[mattp]

Dru alludes to a drawback of the Hilti coils without explaining what it is: they have a coil that is soldered or somehow otherwise attached to the end of the bolt and once you remove it to place a hanger over it, you have a tiny coil that can easily be dropped and which does not stick back onto to the bolt very solidly until you hammer it into the rock. You either have to mess around with the relatively small coil while you are hanging on the cliff or you have to tape it back onto the bolt after you have inserted the hanger the night before.

 

Has anybody but my buddy the Safety Man used these Hilti coil bolts?

[EWolfe]

Dru said:

Here is a photo of my new drilling set up in action! It is a bit heavier but drills very nice holes. See attachment.

 

LOL!

 

I saw that on the way to Whistler! Perfect for those 8" X 156" bolts !!!

[Dru]

Dru said:

"oops I just dropped a 'Hilti coil' while bolting this route on lead"

 

Matt this does not refer to an actual drawback so much as it refers to Cpt Caveman's "I drop brown coils on you from a great height" and the scary hand drilling free on the lead effect on the sphincter.

[EWolfe]

Dru, you hangin' on hooks for that or is it stance?

 

[Dru]

i only did it once and there were stances

[pope]

erik said:

lacate proj

rap to inspect possibilites

do some cleaning

do some more cleaning

rehearse on top rop

more reheasing

spend many many many many many hours thinking about well thoughtout bolt placements

rap and clean

mark possible bolt placements

tr and pretend to clip

have many others do the same

gather input on bolt placement and spacing

tr and clean

drill

install hardware

share with the world

 

It would seem that a responsible climber would first ask, "In what way would a new sport route actually improve the climbing and aesthetics of this crag?"

 

You might then follow this with, "How will other climbers (or other recreational users of the area) react to establishing a sport route here?" When considering this question, one should also research the line to ascertain whether it has been climbed previously without bolts, either as a bold lead or perhaps as an established toprope problem.

 

I don't think we are responding adequately to the original question in this thread. The question was not, "How do I place a bolt?" Rather, it appears that a climber who hasn't actively developed sport routes is curious about the ENTIRE process. I can't believe that not one person on this site has suggested that the very decision to establish a sport route must be carefully scrutinized prior to drilling.

[mattp]

You raise good points, Cassidy, but the original question was about "how one develops a sport route, logistically speaking" and not about whether or where to develop a sport route.

[Off_White]

No, I think, err, Ms Cassidy raises a good point. Should I put a route here? is indeed the starting point of the process. Realizing that the route developer's answer won't satisfy all parties concerned, never the less the issue of pointless sandwich lines and the conversion of existing top ropes into lead problems concerns even the most devout sport climber. It's worth considering if the route is a worthwhile addition to the area, and getting some other opinions, as suggested for the bolt location phase, is a good piece of advice. The best sport routes are carefully crafted, and make a lot of sense to those who follow, even if a lot of artifice went into the creation.

[erik]

jkassidy said:

erik said:

lacate proj

rap to inspect possibilites

do some cleaning

do some more cleaning

rehearse on top rop

more reheasing

spend many many many many many hours thinking about well thoughtout bolt placements

rap and clean

mark possible bolt placements

tr and pretend to clip

have many others do the same

gather input on bolt placement and spacing

tr and clean

drill

install hardware

share with the world

 

It would seem that a responsible climber would first ask, "In what way would a new sport route actually improve the climbing and aesthetics of this crag?"

 

You might then follow this with, "How will other climbers (or other recreational users of the area) react to establishing a sport route here?" When considering this question, one should also research the line to ascertain whether it has been climbed previously without bolts, either as a bold lead or perhaps as an established toprope problem.

 

I don't think we are responding adequately to the original question in this thread. The question was not, "How do I place a bolt?" Rather, it appears that a climber who hasn't actively developed sport routes is curious about the ENTIRE process. I can't believe that not one person on this site has suggested that the very decision to establish a sport route must be carefully scrutinized prior to drilling.

 

 

erik said:

you have to go to the very top and rap down installing the hardware as you go

 

or

 

you can aid up a or the feature and install the hardware.

 

why ya askin? if you r are thinking about putting some routes in, i would do lotsa thinking about the need and peoples desire for new routes. mostly ask yourself: is it worth it to other people? will other climb it? cause putting up a good route is alot of work and why waste your time if no one ever climbs it.

 

 

i addressed your concern in my second posting.

 

aesthics of the area are important, but one moust look with reason to see prior and future useage beyond simply it looking nice. for the forrest service that is not a concern on their part unless it benefits them in anyway. resonsibile bolts are rarely an issue, but as with all things there are two sides. both are always correct and both can do more harm then good in quabbling over the pointless fact that both have egos that stand in the way of reason.

 

so sure all those things need to be considered.

 

[AmberBuxom]

mattp said:

I ask about your use of these bolts because in the past I found them problematic. It has been so long since I've tried them that I can't really remember what the problems were but I seem to recall having trouble getting them into the holes and getting them to properly "grab" - I think these problems may have been as frequent as one in ten or one in twenty. Have you ever had such issues with them? Maybe I was just a bumbler but I distinctly thought that regular "studs" were easier to place (of course I think that was something like 15 years ago and the hardware may not now be exactly the same).

 

The very characteristic for which you recommend them - that they are so easily removed - is also a drawback of the five-piece bolts. Bolts quite often go missing, whether through the work of bolt-hating rock cops or vandals, and we don't always want to facilitate that.

 

Apart from these issues, I believe stainless steel 5-piece bolts are rather spendy, so this may be the main reason I know nobody who uses them. I will always argue that one should not "cheap out" when it comes to hardware, though, and the simple fact that I don't know anybody who uses them is not necessarily a reason to think they are no good. What you say about the lower head profile and the ease of removal is correct and maybe I should take another look at the issue.

 

By the way, my friend "the safety man" has some weird bolts with coils kind of like a helicoil that he says are WAY stronger for a given size than either studs or 5-piece bolts. Have you ever looked at those?

your problems with the 5 piece bolt are negligible imo compared to issues with wedge type anchors

 

'grab' problems are usually due to shitty rock.

 

bolt stealers would rip a hanger from a wedge type just as easily as from a 5 piece. place em higher off the ground.

 

'spendy'? if a few extra buck per pitch is an issue for you then dont fuckin bolt. btw that investment will pay off in spades if the route need to be maintained at some point.

 

'WAY stronger' bolts? shear is over 7000 lbs for 5 piece bolts. is that not enough for ya?

[slaphappy]

lummox- what is the big deal with wedge anchors? In the past what you have stated is not accurate about the removal of each style. The tip of a 5-piece stays in the hole and sucks to drill through. Wedge are not hard to remove and the hole can then be reused or oversized and reused. 5-piece do have a better pull out strength, particularly in shitty stone, but the shear is nearly the same on a wedge and a 5-piece. I believe it is closer to 5000lbs than 7000. Are you stating facts or spew?

[mattp]

Nice attitude there, Amber, but your response really isn't very helpful and I disagree with several of your points. Specifically, (1) I have almost never had a problem installing a wedge anchor; (2) I've had those "grab" problems when installing five piece bolts on clean granite and working fairly hard to assure a clean hole; (3) I've had bolts chopped and hangers stolen from several pitches up a climb before. In addition, if you mean suggest that I am advocating being cheap about the hardware, you are incorrect and I don't think anybody else in this thread is advocating being cheap about the hardware. With respect to bolts, the question is what are the relative advantages and disadvantages of each type and, yes, I think strengh is an issue (even though I would more or less agree with you that a stainless steel 3/8" five-piece bolt is plenty strong -- assuming it is properly installed).