robert Posted October 8, 2003 Posted October 8, 2003 This weekend I am taking a small group up to the Coleman Glacier for some ice cragging. I was up a couple times last year and noticed that of the other groups I saw, some were roped while walking on the glacier and some were not. I am talking about while traveling the seracs to find a suitable spot for climbing, not while actually climbing. Is there any consensus on whether is it best to be roped while walking on bare glacier? This seems to me to be a different situation than would be roping up for climbing over exposed glacier ice. Since the likelihood of self-arrest on steep or even moderately steep ice is very small, unprotected roped climbing puts the group at greater risk. But in the seracs that consequence of a fall is not likely to be pulling the rope team down the mountain, though it could be pulling someone else into a crevasse. But the advantage of being roped is that if someone did fall into a hole they could be extracted more easily, or depending on the situation, their fall could be held by the other members of the rope team. I also think that climbing ability and experience have a big part to play in the decision. Certainly if everyone has lots of experience in similar situations a rope is not needed. Similarly if some of the members have little or no experience traveling on broken and uneven ice a rope is very important. I know what I am going to be doing this weekend, but I was wondering what others did or thought. Quote
iain Posted October 8, 2003 Posted October 8, 2003 roping up on ice w/o intermediate pro is dumb, unless you are a human ice screw. Quote
Jason_Martin Posted October 8, 2003 Posted October 8, 2003 On a dry glacier - such as the Coleman in its current condition - there is no need to rope up. That said, the danger right now for beginners travelling in the ice fall is not crevasses, you can walk right around those, but lack of skill in crampon technique. The ice is very inconsistent which makes it difficult for beginners to walk. It would be good to practice technique a bit before getting into any ground that is too difficult for people. The reality is that in that ice fall, one cannot really put in intermediate pro and expect it to help someone who falls three feet because of poor technique and breaks their ankle... This is the real danger right now. Jason Quote
catbirdseat Posted October 8, 2003 Posted October 8, 2003 Start your beginners out on low angle ice and don't let them get more than a few feet above "the ground", ie a safe landing, until they have their crampon technique down solidly. And make sure they wear gloves. Quote
Dru Posted October 8, 2003 Posted October 8, 2003 catbirdseat said: Start your beginners out on low angle ice and don't let them get more than a few feet above "the ground", ie a safe landing, until they have their crampon technique down solidly. And make sure they wear gloves. sounds like a real fun weekend of seracing Quote
Dustin_B Posted October 8, 2003 Posted October 8, 2003 robert said: This weekend I am taking a small group up to the Coleman Glacier for some ice cragging. I was up a couple times last year and noticed that of the other groups I saw, some were roped while walking on the glacier and some were not. I am talking about while traveling the seracs to find a suitable spot for climbing, not while actually climbing. Is there any consensus on whether is it best to be roped while walking on bare glacier? This seems to me to be a different situation than would be roping up for climbing over exposed glacier ice. Since the likelihood of self-arrest on steep or even moderately steep ice is very small, unprotected roped climbing puts the group at greater risk. But in the seracs that consequence of a fall is not likely to be pulling the rope team down the mountain, though it could be pulling someone else into a crevasse. But the advantage of being roped is that if someone did fall into a hole they could be extracted more easily, or depending on the situation, their fall could be held by the other members of the rope team. I also think that climbing ability and experience have a big part to play in the decision. Certainly if everyone has lots of experience in similar situations a rope is not needed. Similarly if some of the members have little or no experience traveling on broken and uneven ice a rope is very important. I know what I am going to be doing this weekend, but I was wondering what others did or thought. There is a lot of flat terrain/ice up there. You could pretty easily get to a nice top roping spot without much danger. (without crampons too if you have ever walked on ice before). Like was said, the real danger is falling and breaking an ankle or something. No need to pull anyone else off their feet if one person falls. That said, don't let you guard down just because the ice is real low angle and the danger feels low. Personally, I wouldn't rope up. I think if the class has any experience walking on ice at all, even really firm snow, they won't feel the need to rope up. Quote
robert Posted October 9, 2003 Author Posted October 9, 2003 Thanks for sharing your views. The Coleman is such a good place for this type of practice precisely because it is so varied. It has some great flat and gently sloping areas for getting the hang of crampons and a feel for the ice, and it has plenty of steep to vertical to overhanging for some great fun climbing. Our group will most likely use a combination of unroped walking, and roped travel both with and without running pro. Of course there will be some fixed top ropes for the actual climbing. I see that the general consensus is that unroped is the way to go. I thought that I would recount what I saw on a trip last year. There was a group of five climbers getting ready to head out onto the glacier. There were four climbers roped and one unroped. The roped team had three “clients” and one “guide”. The “clients” were spaced about 10 feet apart, with the “guide” about 30 feet from the last “client”. After they headed out on to the glacier the unroped guy told us that it was an exam for the American Moutian Guides Association. He said that they guide was actually being examined by the clients. While we seraced we watched the four spend at least three hours walking and climbing all over the Coleman. The guide managed the team over some steep terrain leading when they climbed and giving a loose standing belay as they downclimbed. As we were heading down the trail a great cheer rose from the spot where they had just stepped off the glacier. I believe that the guide passed the test. It would seem that the AMGA at least believes in unprotected roped travel. It was interesting to watch. Quote
Dru Posted October 9, 2003 Posted October 9, 2003 the AMGA believes in lawsuits and so on too. if you believe your partner is gonna sue you for whatever - get a different partner, or start charging him/her for climbing with you. Quote
mattp Posted October 9, 2003 Posted October 9, 2003 Robert, For general glacier travel, most climbers do not use intermediate pro and for short bits of ice or technical snow such as one would be likely to encounter during a crossing of the snow-covered portions of the Coleman Glacier and many climbers would use a sitting belay (unanchored) or simply have the party members keep a tight rope without setting up any formal belay whatever when they are crossing questionnable snow bridges or climbing down into and back out of a minor crevasse. I think Jason's point was that for climbing up and down and around closely spaced crevasses and seracs such as when crossing a hundred yards of highly broken ice to reach a serac practice climb on the lower part of the Coleman, it will be very difficult to manage the rope in such a way that it will offer any real protection from the likely source of injury - a misstep and slip on a low-angle bit of ice - and that one would have to set intermediate anchors and belay if they really wanted to safeguard their "clients." Quote
robert Posted October 9, 2003 Author Posted October 9, 2003 I am not worried about getting sued. I wouldn’t even get blamed if one of them fell and go hurt. It would be my partner who would be/feel responsible. The beginers are his fiance and her friend. For that reason I won’t be calling the shots when it comes to their safety. I was posting about the AMGA to add another view to the conversation. I would be fine if we went out unroped. Similarly, I would understand if we walked roped and setup quickie sitting or hip belays as they needed the help. If we need to set a screw or two and make something formal, so be it. It will really depend on what we find out on the glacier. It could be an easy walk to a good spot, or it could require some slightly more difficult moves. The glacier changes so much that you just never know. I do know that if we choose to rope up it will be to keep everyone safe and we would do it in a manner that will allow everyone to be safe. We will probably have two pairs and will be able to manage a short rope to even over very broken terrain. It would be much more difficult, if not impossible, if there were four on one rope. I have always enjoyed reading the debates that questions like this can start. Happy climbing. Quote
Lambone Posted October 9, 2003 Posted October 9, 2003 One thing to watch for is any fresh snow covering up any potential holes. This was my biggest worry the one time I went Seracing on the Colman. We didn't rope up, except for some short top ropes on seracs. Then again, a serac could colapse and kill someone at any time, so take your chances... Quote
scot'teryx Posted October 9, 2003 Posted October 9, 2003 Robert I was up there last weekend, and it is very dangerous as I fell in with crampons on, those gapers actually suck you in: Anyway, no need to rope up unless you are in a dicer section, but we got to where we needed to go w/o roping up. As we found out the hard way, be careful of placing the screws for anchors on the sunnyside as ours melted out very quickly. No way you can get a picket in either. I'm sure you know this, but even with snow and packs on top of the screws to slow down the heating process, they still pulled right out with little effort. Quote
robert Posted October 9, 2003 Author Posted October 9, 2003 The forecast is for some snow between now and Saturday, with cold weather through the weekend. We will, as always, watch the screws, but I think it will be less of a problem for us than it was for you. The weather looks great in your shot. I was disappointed to hear that your site is going away. It was a good site. Thanks for the time you put in on it. Quote
JoshK Posted October 9, 2003 Posted October 9, 2003 scot'teryx said: Robert I was up there last weekend, and it is very dangerous as I fell in with crampons on, those gapers actually suck you in: I assume this was sarcasm? If not, you need to learn to look before you step. Quote
Dru Posted October 9, 2003 Posted October 9, 2003 JoshK said: scot'teryx said: Robert I was up there last weekend, and it is very dangerous as I fell in with crampons on, those gapers actually suck you in: I assume this was sarcasm? If not, you need to learn to look before you step. i like how his partner is getting ready to bean him with a rock. Quote
JoshK Posted October 9, 2003 Posted October 9, 2003 Dru said: JoshK said: scot'teryx said: Robert I was up there last weekend, and it is very dangerous as I fell in with crampons on, those gapers actually suck you in: I assume this was sarcasm? If not, you need to learn to look before you step. i like how his partner is getting ready to bean him with a rock. Meanwhile the guy up above just got done shitting in a crevase and returns to find this scene! Quote
scot'teryx Posted October 9, 2003 Posted October 9, 2003 He was going to beam me with a rock and his tool! I was actually in my chacos and slipped and fell in. Should have tried to use Stubai's with the sandals huh? Quote
scot'teryx Posted October 9, 2003 Posted October 9, 2003 Meanwhile the guy up above just got done shitting in a crevase and returns to find this scene! Dude, that's the infamous Rod Fox! Quote
scot'teryx Posted October 9, 2003 Posted October 9, 2003 Learn to climb ice with Experienced Instructors Quote
iain Posted October 9, 2003 Posted October 9, 2003 could that dude with the rock have any more crap hanging from his pack Quote
scot'teryx Posted October 9, 2003 Posted October 9, 2003 wait until the movie comes out..........................Horizontal Limit! Quote
Alpinfox Posted October 10, 2003 Posted October 10, 2003 scot'teryx said: Dude, that's the infamous Rod Fox! whozat? Quote
catbirdseat Posted October 13, 2003 Posted October 13, 2003 Consider using a couple of vee threads equalized for your top rope anchors rather than a screws. Vee threads take longer to melt out. Quote
cracked Posted October 13, 2003 Posted October 13, 2003 catbirdseat said: Consider using a couple of vee threads equalized for your top rope anchors rather than a screws. Vee threads take longer to melt out. Weaker, too. Quote
Formaldehead Posted October 13, 2003 Posted October 13, 2003 catbirdseat said: Consider using a couple of vee threads equalized for your top rope anchors rather than a screws. Vee threads take longer to melt out. Consider that the screws never melt out comlpetely. Consider covering the screw hangers with snow, or chipped ice, so that the sun doesn't heat them up. Quote
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