Time estimate listed in Nelson's Vol I, 2nd Ed.

[goatboy]

Let me start by saying I love Jim Nelson's climbing guides and read them falling asleep each night.

 

Having said that, I wanted to ask about the time estimate given for Eldorado Peak's East Ridge route.

 

He says it takes "8-10 hours from the edge of the glacier, 1 way" for Eldorado.

 

We found it to be more like 2.5 hours. This, coming from the edge of the Eldorado Glacier to the summit. And I am by no means an especially fast climber.

 

Anyone else have a different interpretation of what he means here? Is it a simple typo, or am I misinterpreting what it says?

 

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

 

Steve

[Cpt.Caveman]

We found it to be more like 2.5 hours. This, coming from the edge of the Eldorado Glacier to the summit. And I am by no means an especially fast climber.

 

I agree with your timing estimate. I believe an average party will be on the summit from the edge of the glacier in about 2-4 hours.

[Alpine_Tom]

I didn't notice that at the time, but yeah, when I did it a few years ago, my time was a lot closer to yours than what shows up in the book.

 

I guess he assumes poor conditions, slow climbers, stopping for lunch, rigging running belays, route disareements among the party, etc, plus extra time just to keep you safe. (For Sahali, he says it takes 1-2 hours from the Boston/Sahali col; it's actually more like 20 minutes.)

 

I've noticed with Beckey's route descriptions, the easier the route, the more he pads the time: a climb like Mt. Pugh or Del Campo I will do in 2-3 hours less than he says. The harder routes are more accurate.

I assume the reason is to protect the novice (who tend to do the easier climbs) so if he gets off route or messes up, he won't end up benighted.

 

And, I suppose, to protect the guidebook writer from liability.

 

 

 

[goatboy]

yeah, thanks for the responses.

 

Do you think the authors intentionally "pad" the time, assuming that people in the know will re-interpret it based on previous experience?

 

If so, it's confusing, because as mentioned above, some of the times seem to be "padded" and others not . . . Prussik Peak West Ridge (3-5 hours from base) seems pretty long, to me, but the time estimates for The Beckey Route (3-5 hours from car) seems right on for most.

 

I realize that some folks will solo sections that others will pitch out, others will simul, and so on . . . and time estimates are merely ballpark figures to use as a gauge . . . but who would really take the 10 hours listed to get up Eldorado?

 

Any other thoughts? Thanks for the comments.

 

Steve

[pms]

Fatboy speed climbers. Seriously though alpine tom is mostly correct about our time guesstimates. Still 8-10 hours seems way to long, I think mistake. What would be a good time range for future printings? What other times, or info. can be corrected or improved?

[Alex]

I've done the E ridge in an hour from camp at the edge of the glacier. I think the entire trip can be done sub 8 hours car to car.

 

Alex

[Cpt.Caveman]

Alex said:

I've done the E ridge in an hour from camp at the edge of the glacier. I think the entire trip can be done sub 8 hours car to car.

 

Alex

 

That doesnt mean everyone will.

 

Some guys do the North Couloir in fall sub 6 hours car to car.. Would I realistically call that a time that everyone should strive to meet. No.

[Alex]

Alpine_Tom said:

I've noticed with Beckey's route descriptions, the easier the route, the more he pads the time: a climb like Mt. Pugh or Del Campo I will do in 2-3 hours less than he says. The harder routes are more accurate.

 

We were discussing this very fact on Dome Peak. We didnt have much time and the way looked pretty long. Jim's guide said something like 6-8 hours from camp. As we set off, I asked Lowell for his guess, and he said 4 hours. I thought that was really pushing it, but since we didnt have much more time than that it would have to be 4 hours. We ended up doing the Dome Gl in 3 hours from Itswoot Ridge on Lowells blistering pace. We theorized that since the route was non-technical, it was sure to attract a whole spectrum of abilities and speeds. Last thing the guidebook needs to do is underestimate a reasonable amount of time for a route and have people who are unfamiliar with the area (and who is with Dome??) epic time and time again far from home.

[Alex]

Cpt.Caveman said:

Alex said:

I've done the E ridge in an hour from camp at the edge of the glacier. I think the entire trip can be done sub 8 hours car to car.

 

Alex

 

That doesnt mean everyone will.

 

Some guys do the North Couloir in fall sub 6 hours car to car.. Would I realistically call that a time that everyone should strive to meet. No.

 

I agree completely, Ray. Jim was asking for a range. I was just offering one set of data for the range.

 

Alex

[JoshK]

Alex said:

Alpine_Tom said:

I've noticed with Beckey's route descriptions, the easier the route, the more he pads the time: a climb like Mt. Pugh or Del Campo I will do in 2-3 hours less than he says. The harder routes are more accurate.

 

We were discussing this very fact on Dome Peak. We didnt have much time and the way looked pretty long. Jim's guide said something like 6-8 hours from camp. As we set off, I asked Lowell for his guess, and he said 4 hours. I thought that was really pushing it, but since we didnt have much more time than that it would have to be 4 hours. We ended up doing the Dome Gl in 3 hours from Itswoot Ridge on Lowells blistering pace. We theorized that since the route was non-technical, it was sure to attract a whole spectrum of abilities and speeds. Last thing the guidebook needs to do is underestimate a reasonable amount of time for a route and have people who are unfamiliar with the area (and who is with Dome??) epic time and time again far from home.

 

Yeah, the 6 to 8 for dome was long in my opinion too. We did it in 4 breaking trail through knee deep spring slop.

[Crackbolter]

I wouldn't change the time for Dome. Yes, you could go faster but you could also go slower as well. If anything, change it to 4 to 8 hours but leaving it is okay too. This time is relative to where you bivy as well as with many other routes in the Cascades. Read the disclaimer Jim provides for us newbies regarding time, preparedness, etc. You will thin know that almost all the information is subjective.

[Bronco]

The times are fine for slow fatboy climbers like me!

[Cpt.Caveman]

Bronco said:

The times are fine for slow fatboy climbers like me!

 

Fatboy climbers like me also agree with most of the time estimates.

 

People approach climbing differently. Some like watching the sun rise in the morning and brewing up. Others want to be on top of the hill by then. I believe some times are debatable but most of them are pretty accurate.

 

I would guess the times are based upon an average party. What does that mean? Well maybe more discussion.

[Crackbolter]

Jim,

 

Maybe you should keep track of record times and list them as a side project. Fastest time on each of the Selected Climbs would give skilled climbers a goal to reach for beyond the normal objective. You could also choose the slowest time. (i.e. slowest party to climb the N. face of the Mole in the winter, Outer Space, etc.)

[goatboy]

Hi pms,

 

Thanks for your response. I think your question about what time ranges could be revised/improved is worthy of a thread of its own rather than being buried here in mine, but in response to your question, I think that most parties could climb from the edge of Eldorado Glacier to the summit in 2-4 hours.

 

My suggestion, for future revisions, is to clarify in the text which glacier is being referred to, as there are multiple possible approaches and multiple glaciers that one could be at the edge of. I wasn't sure if you meant the edge of the eldo glacier or the edge of the inspiration glacier, from the text.

 

To summarize, I believe it should read something like: "2-4 hours one-way from the toe of the Eldorado Glacier; 1-2.5 hours from high camp at the base of the East Ridge."

 

Thanks for being receptive to comments!

 

Steve

[Dru]

pms said:

What other times, or info. can be corrected or improved?

 

From end of logging road to bivy at base NF Shuksan 4 hours and minimal bush instead of 6 hours and scary bush - if you go the right way that is.

[goatboy]

Crackbolter,

 

I like the idea of keeping a record of slow and fast times, for amusement and inspiration as much as for a guideline for climbers to gauge their own times -- but since such records can change so frequently, it seems to be better done via a website format rather than a printed book that only gets revised/updated once in a blue moon.

 

Perhaps this website could start keeping track of such times in a separate thread or forum? I would love to see a spray-free place where folks could post what they climbed, what manner they climbed it, and any other special strategies they used (like stashing a bike for the descent/approach, whatever).

 

Having said all that, I think the recent empahsis on speed-climbing for its own sake is a bit scary, as it can predispose people to compromise safety by competing against others instead of against themselves.

 

I think I'll start a "pilot" thread on record times (slow and fast) for one climb and see what folks have to say. I'll do it in the Climber's Board right now.

[Redoubt]

goatboy said:

I would love to see a spray-free place....

Uh, on THIS board?

[goatboy]

 

no doubt, redoubt! My bad.