What's up with this shite?

[Beck]

those "mixed lines" in the pictures look pretty dry! and isn't mixed an unfavorable aspect of alpine, not some bouldering sporto clusterfawk?

 

Verglas is no ones friend!

[Sphinx]

...

Edited October 1, 2003 by Peter_Puget

[glassgowkiss]

.....

Edited October 1, 2003 by Peter_Puget

[erik]

pope said:

Difficult, long mixed climbs have been put up in the Rockies and often go unrepeated for decades. Some haven't been repeated. And they weren't rap bolted. Part of difficult mixed climbing has always been dealing with the diffulties in arranging protection. You think that you can somehow throw that aspect of mixed climbing out and do this sport/ice monkey busines....and this is going to prepare you for difficult mixed climbing in the high mountains, where there is no string of bolts?

 

scott backes top ropes with his ice tools in a quarry. he leads around m9 or so(i dont remember what he said at his slide show)

 

so maybe people who do push the grades and their abilities do use these bolts and other such pretend trash to send some of the hardest routes in the world.

 

 

[Figger_Eight]

but we need a place to train somewhere, don't we?

 

Yeah...move to Canmore foo'.

 

Dry tooling on pristine rock in popular areas is the equivalent of skateboarders doing rail slides on historical fountains in public squares.

[Peter_Puget]

F8 - Have you seen the routes? Are the routes in the pictures the ones Paco was writing about? Exactly what do you mean by pristine?

[erik]

um i call bullshit on calling the alpental valley pristine. it is also short sighted to claim that people need to move to canmore to get better at climbing.

 

who cares anyways? if you think this is the only gridbolted piece of choss ten you are seriously mistaken.

 

also why is it legit to bolt choss in canada for the sake of mixed climbing, but not in washington?

 

these are questions and thoughts and not neccesarily my opinon.

 

[specialed]

How's this any different from bolted rock routes on Garfield, Baring, and up at the pass?

[minx]

whatever i may think of bolting stuff for mixed routes, the alpental valley is definitely not pristine. there are herds of people trapsing through that area everyday of the week year round. frankly, if this is going to be done locally, alpental is probably not a bad choice.

[Figger_Eight]

erik said:

um i call bullshit on calling the alpental valley pristine.

Okay...it ain't really pristine - but it's in a high profile area where hundreds of people walk up and down in it all year long. Scratching up the rock with front points and picks, and bolting lines that end halfway up walls in an area like this is the fastest way of attracting unwanted attention from the tool. That's why I mentioned the skateboarding analogy. There's a time and place for everything.

 

 

it is also short sighted to claim that people need to move to canmore to get better at climbing.

I meant mixed climbing. Same as if you want to spend a good amount of time getting wired on cracks: you move to the Valley

 

 

who cares anyways? if you think this is the only gridbolted piece of choss ten you are seriously mistaken.

I guess I do...I'm starting to see indiscrete bolting as the trend around here.

 

 

also why is it legit to bolt choss in canada for the sake of mixed climbing, but not in washington?

Places like Haffner Creek are only visited in the winter, and by climbers. There's a time and a place...

 

these are questions and thoughts and not neccesarily my opinon.

 

[mattp]

Kiss-

Yourn post that was deleted suggested that you have some argument with what I wrote, but I'm not quite sure what it is. I didn't (and don't) question the idea that it might be legitimate to bolt climbs specifically so that somebody can practice using their tools and crampons on rock, and indeed I have wondered about taking my axe and crampons for a spin on some sport climb sometime precisely because I believe it might help me to get better at mixed climbing. I also did not (and don not) question that there may be awesome mixed or ice climbs that can be facilitated by bolt pro, though it sounds as if that line at Snoqualmie Pass may not be one of them. I am not a big-time anti-bolt moralist, but I DO think that there are places where folks go way overboard with bolts and although I don't think this will happen, I would not want the current M-9 phenomenon to lead to the bolting of rock routes throughout the Cascades. As to that particular line, I would say that if it is an out-of-the way place that will not attract attention/spur controversy, and if it is actually thought by those who are into this kind of thing to be a good climb, I am probably OK with it. Maybe I am just an old dog that can't learn new tricks, but I think the fascination with using ice tools and crampons to climb rock - as an end in itself rather than a link between actual snow and ice-covered terrain - is kind of odd.

[erik]

f8,

 

haffner and its counter part canyon offer summer walking paths with interpetive signs and shit.....so it sees peeps all year.

 

bolting choss is no more wore then seeing people build fires, rip down limbs and walk off the trail.

i bet you that most of the snowshoers/non climbers who see mixed climbing in the alp valley are quite excited to see it and in a positive light.

 

you dont have to go to the valley, many places offer you a chane to hone your skills. and lots of places in washington. i train at index b4 i go to yose.

 

but no point in arguing about nothing!!!

 

i'll buy you a beer this weekend!!

 

[Peter_Puget]

I am somewhat out of this debate but I do notice that most of the posters seem to be theorists regarding these routes.

 

For example, no one has confirmed the routes in the pictures are the routes Paco first mentioned.

For example, no one has confirmed how old some of the routes are.

For example, most of the posters haven’t even seen the routes and are slamming them

 

All of this is conjecture based on a priori assumptions and biases.

 

Mattp – Please don’t dry tool on existing sport routes. The tools can/do mess up the rock.

 

 

As an aside modern mixed climbing has absolutely have no appeal to me. It appears to have very few of the qualities I enjoy about climbing. Of course that is my personal preference and in no way should be seen as an attack on mixed climbing.

 

PP

 

[mattp]

Peter: Good point about tools and crampons being likely to damage the rock. Even though I am somewhat scornful of the idea that a former railway cut next to the interstate is something that we need to fight big battles to preserve, it would be rather poor form to take my ice tools and crampons to exit 38. Perhaps this is all the more reason why I might think the bolted lines up in that basin below Chair Peak are OK - it offers a place where I could go out and thrash about without damaging somebody else's climb that was established for a different purpose.

 

As to you point about speculation, I don't quite get it. Of course we are speculating. Whether we are discussing this line, where most of us are quite capable of going up there to look at it, or the latest 5.12 sport route at Washington Pass (where most of us are not - or at least not without some serious monkeying around), I think we still all have legitimate opinions on the matter. And the age of the route or the fact that it was or was not the route pictured may make a difference, but maybe not. I think my general comments would mostly apply either way.

[Peter_Puget]

Mattp –

 

Well F8 assumes that the routes are indiscrete and asking for trouble. Since he did not respond to my earlier post where I ask him several question - I assume he is speculating. What if the routes are four years old and just now coming to everyone’s awareness. Would we still think F8’s opinion at all realistic? What if some were 6 years old and the one with the fixed rope the only new one? In making a useful assessment I believe that such facts would be important.

 

Many posters seem to be assuming the mixed routes in the Snoq pass area are poor routes. I have talked to some who have dry tooled some bolted routes in the area and they thought they were really fun. These guys have climbed A5 in the Valley and done difficult routes in the Rockies. Are these guys telling me stories about the routes in question? Who knows?

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2003 by Peter_Puget

[Figger_Eight]

erik said:

f8,

 

haffner and its counter part canyon offer summer walking paths with interpetive signs and shit.....so it sees peeps all year.

 

bolting choss is no more wore then seeing people build fires, rip down limbs and walk off the trail.

i bet you that most of the snowshoers/non climbers who see mixed climbing in the alp valley are quite excited to see it and in a positive light.

 

you dont have to go to the valley, many places offer you a chane to hone your skills. and lots of places in washington. i train at index b4 i go to yose.

 

but no point in arguing about nothing!!!

 

i'll buy you a beer this weekend!!

 

If I remember right, Haffner is a creek in the summer and can only be accessed in the winter when it's frozen over - I might be wrong though... Johnston Creek has that cool catwalk that's installed in the side of the cliff that allows year round use.

 

Bolting choss is no worse...but also no better. It still shouldn't be done indescriminately. Theres a place for campfires and brokens limbs, just as there are places for bolts. These places aren't everywhere.

 

Living in Yos for a year vs. living at Index for a year would make you a better climber.

 

Word about the beer. Timmy sez you're beer garden enforcer this year.

[Figger_Eight]

Peter_Puget said:

Mattp –

 

Well F8 assumes that the routes are indiscrete and asking for trouble. Since he did not respond to my earlier post where I ask him several question - I assume he is speculating. What if the routes are four years old and just now coming to everyone’s awareness. Would we still think F8’s opinion at all realistic? What if some were 6 years old and the one with the fixed rope the only new one? In making a useful assessment I believe that such facts would be important.

 

Many posters seem to be assuming the mixed routes in the Snoq pass area are poor routes. I have talked to some who have dry tooled some bolted routes in the area and they thought they were really fun. These guys have climbed A5 in the Valley and done difficult routes in the Rockies. Are these guys telling me stories about the routes in question? Who knows?

 

If a couple of people walking up to the Toof' notice them, how are they not indiscrete? I don't know the age of these routes...it would be interesting to find out. Anyways, my opinion has more to do with bolting practices in the area - not the quality of the routes. I like mixed climbing and made myself feel bad on some of the routes in the Can. Rockies and if you say these routes are good...than I believe you.

 

The problem is that bolting is a bit like the rainforests. If we wait till there is a problem, then it's too late. My dos centavos.

[erik]

f8

 

one issue with your analogy. rain forests are an integral part of the ecosphere.

 

and where does one claim the bolts to be wrong? or too much?

 

 

 

 

[Peter_Puget]

I am not saying the routes are good. I am not even sure if we are discussing the same ones. The ones I have heard about are several years old. I even think they have been climbed in summer.

 

 

[Paco]

glassgowkiss said:

so paco- do we need your official permision to bolt? is it your own little private pissing territory?

btw. people who put down mixed climbing are lame. thanks to climbs like Heffner climbers can dash up A-Strain in 12 hours rt (it's M5) or do climbs like Howse of cards. calgary/canmore scene is awsome, people climb hard, they put up new routes and you guys suck ass

 

Of course you don't need my official permission to bolt, but I do have an opinion and will offer it. The routes and location still seem very contrived. I can see a legit argument for finding and developing a "mixed" climbing area seperate from an already developed sport climbing areas, but still question the validity of developing here just because some ice forms near here during the winter. The route that I saw needs no ice to form in order to be climbed. The routes in the picture require no ice to form to climb. There is nothing "mixed" about those routes. It's just rock climbing with crampons and ice tools. And people have been putting up difficult mixed climb long before heal spurs, leashless tools, and 30 ft. bolted "mixed" routes in Alpental.

 

Like I said earier, not every piece of choss needs to be bolted. It just surprised me to see bolts here because it really didn't seem much different than anywhere else in the Alpental valley. Maybe we should bolt the north face of the tooth so some some folks can climb it with crampons and ice tools and call it a great new mixed route. Maybe that will allow us as PNW climbers to be placed back at the cuting edge of climbing.

 

Also, the question as to how long the routes have been there has yet to be answered.

[Figger_Eight]

erik said:

f8

 

one issue with your analogy. rain forests are an integral part of the ecosphere.

 

and where does one claim the bolts to be wrong? or too much?

 

Lemme try again:

 

Overbolting and bolting cracks is a problem...I think everyone can agree with that. Is it a problem yet? You ask 5 different people, you'll get 5 different answers. I have my own opinion, but that's neither here nor there.

 

The bolting issue is comparable to the rainforest issue in that if we wait till there is a problem (some might say there already is one) then it's too late. It's the same argument that you could use for global warming, fossil fuels and many other environmental issues - and to me bolting is an environmental issue. These are all irreversible processes...once you put a bolt in, it's a permanent alteration of the rock. Just like the other issues I mentioned, once a disturbing trend has been identified, steps need to be taken to make sure it doesn't get out of control. MattP has been asking if it's a problem yet. When I walk up to Pearly Gates and see those bolts next to the cracks up there, I might be inclined to say it's headed in that direction.

 

[mattp]

Mister Eight:

 

If you saw a lot of bolts next to cracks up at the Pearly Gates, or if you think that particular practice is a big problem, where were you when I was asking about this in the bolting cracks thread? Maybe we should fire up that discussion again because I'm honestly still wondering just how big of a problem you or anybody else thinks that particular practice is.

 

Meanwhile, back to the discussion of that small wall up below Chair Peak. Yes, most of us agree that there are at least some places in this State where overbolting has been a problem. Do you think it sounds like the basin below Chair Peak is one of them? Do you contend that we are likely to have an access issue because something like three or possibly four thirty foot lines have been bolted up there? If you simply want to argue that bolts are in your eyes ugly and whoever established these lines lacks class or vision or something, that is one thing. And even though I've already said that I think this climb that we are talking about is probably not a huge crime, and I might even think it is a good idea to bolt some areas for such odd activities as "new wave" mixed climbing, I might even end up agreeing with you if I went up there and looked at it, or if I studied the issue for a while. But what do you think the greater impacts may be?

 

 

[Jason_Martin]

The routes put up in the basin were put up in November of 2002. Some ice does develop on these routes at times. The reality is that it is probably a pretty good place for mixed climbing practice.

 

Nobody should forget that we all define what climbing is to us. A lot of people who are not mixed climbers are attacking the area. I don't particularly like bouldering, but I don't put it down as contrived or stupid. It's just another element of the sport that provides a great deal of fun to those who indulge in it. Likewise, when a boulderer tells me an area is good I believe him. When a boulderer tells me an area is bad, I believe that too. So far those who have climbed in the area have said it's good. I for one belive them.

 

Most climbers do not want to see their routes being scratched up by ice tools and crampons. As a result, chossy wet rock is a great place for these routes to develop. It is HIGHLY unlikely that the develpment of these routes in this location will turn Alpental Valley into Smith Rock.

 

There are currently two other areas being developed for drytooling in Washington State:

 

The first is an area near Deception Crags (the exit 38 climbing area) which has been developed for drytooling and mixed climbing. Though with the exception of one route there, everything is a bit slabby and lame.

 

The second area is near Pan Dome Falls at Mt. Baker Ski area. There are a few M6-M7 type things there. At one point there was a thread on this area. Perhaps you might find it if you type in "Tool Shed."

 

And lastly, I've climbed in Hafner Creek twice. The creek was not frozen either time that I was there.

 

Jason

[Figger_Eight]

I didn't say I saw a "lot" of bolts, just that I saw bolts next to cracks. E-Rock and Sjwyjwhatzit (Ben) were up there with me and both agreed they are unnecessary, as both climbs have been led without clipping the bolts. I didn't mention it before because it woulda just been lost among the spew and posturing in the previous threads.

 

Like I mentioned before, I don't think it's a huge, out of control problem...yet. However Pearly Gates is a relatively new area, and to see it happen there might incline me to say that the trend is leaning that way. And, again, if it becomes a big problem then it's too late - the rock has been needlessly defaced.

 

Given, it's only one new area out of many, but I don't want to spend all my time sniffing out errant bolts - I'd rather be climbing with my buds and having a good time. If I do see something that might be questionable I'll mention it and welcome any replies, whether contradictory or supportive.

 

Back to topic: Listen you hosers...you aren't going to suck me into an anti-bolt debate because I'm not totally anti-bolt. I'm just saying that if new areas are going to be developed (how can they not be), I just hope that the bolt placements are discrete and well thought out. Matt - you're the poster boy for that.

 

Jason - I'm not saying mixed climbing is stupid or dumb. I enjoy it. At the same time, you say these climbs only see action every so often because the ice doesn't form very consistently. Does a route that shows up only occasionally (compared to the dependability of Banff climbs) justify a new line of bolts to be there? I'm not sure it does, it would be nice to know more about them though.

 

BTW: the three times I've been up Haffner it's been snowy and mostly frozen over, and I've had to jump over a couple spots.

 

All right...I'm going to Smith now so I won't be able to read anymore till next week.

[Dru]

mixed climbing is not stupid and dumb, but that a 30' route with no ice is proclaimed as the "hardest mixed route in the state" is stupid and dumb. about like calling a 1 pitch climb on some high crag the "hardest alpine route in the Cascades"