Validity of an the ascent

[erik]

Recently have been doing a fair amount of ground up adventure climbing. cleaning and trundling on lead where is needs it. digging placements out and features to help ascend. we do not scrub the lines or place anochors or leave webbing or any of that crap.

 

my partner and i were chit chatting about this while our other one was leading and he was told by the local guidebook author that we were not doing new routes, but adventure climbing.

 

granted we have climbed some great features, and some very cool. most of these routes are quite assecible to anyone who wants to walk a short jaunt up hill.

 

do out routes not count because we do not rap clean them? or make our path obvious? is one required to force a route up an inobvious line, bolt an anchor before it is considered a route?

 

an example that ws given was alot of the yoder routes in the icicle. he put them up in a similar style, just going up and climbing, not wasting time making it happy for everyone else. sometimes they were runout, sometimes they were hard. but now apprently they have gone back and started to make these routes "safe for the kids" renaming them and putting a new fa's name on the route.

 

i think this is stupid. if a person climbs the formation or feature, in ground up style it is as valid if not more valid then a rehearsed and overly gardened route.

 

************************ NOTE *****************

 

this topic is meant for a discussion and is not intended to name anyone route, climbing location, climber, group of climbers, formation, moutain or crag.

 

it has nothing to do with any route i have personally climbed. if you would like information on any route i have climbed, please email me or start another thread.

 

 

Edited September 17, 2003 by erik

[Dru]

Ground up style is totally valid.

 

I know a Quebec dude who makes a point of never reporting first ascents just leaving a sling somewhere on a line so that 20 years from now when the climb is repeated someone will know that it has already been climbed.

 

That said I do believe in reporting of new routes no matter what style they are ascended in, otherwise it can be hard to tell if a dirty crack has been climbed but not cleaned, or not.

 

 

I have made my share of 2nd ascents believing them to be firsts and only later found out the truth

[Peter_Puget]

Very true Dru. What may be stupid is the assumtion that the second ascenders always knowthey are second.

[mattp]

This could be a good discussion, Erik. Being one who has spent many climbing days over the last two years working on a single climb doing what you dismissively describe as "making it safe for the kids," I'll take the bait as if you were directly posting at me.

 

I commend you for your boldness in setting out to climb something in an adventurous fasion. I enjoy the same thing, though I would venture to guess that you guys are tackling harder lines than I do when "adventure climbing." You are climbing in the true spirit of the climbing heroes that most or all of us respect most highly; that brings an element of "traditional climbing" back into the sport of rock climbing which developed, sort of, through the use of small crags as a substitute for mountaineering. However, I believe that the chances are that most of your "lines" are not going to be something that many others will want to follow.

 

Whether you disagree with the certain guidebook author's terminology, however, I'll say that I think his "method" is not only legitimate, but that it is not all that new. In fact many of the "classic" climbs at Index were only rendered into anything like an enjoyable climb after several days of cleaning and fixing gear, jumarring up and rappelling down, even though the original ascent of may have been done from the ground up, digging moss and dirt from the cracks and tying off whatever was available.

 

There is room for, and validity in, a variety of styles, no? Long live "adventure climbing!" Report your climbs for what they are: "first ascents."

[minx]

did you have fun? yes? then who cares what the guide book guy says ?

[lummox]

notice the 'author' in 'authority'. Any 'local guidebook author' has the authority to validate ascents. or at least they think they do.

[Dru]

minx said:

did you have fun? yes? then who cares what the guide book guy says ?

 

because the guidebook writer is disrespectful of Eriks style of ascent and proclaims it to be invalid by recording later ascents as the first, thus declaring the earlier ascent to have never occurred - much the way the death squads "disappear" enemies of the state. it is historical revisionism.

[erik]

lummox said:

notice the 'author' in 'authority'. Any 'local guidebook author' has the authority to validate ascents. or at least they think they do.

 

thats what i am talking about.

 

and minx, that has little to do with the discussion. i always have fun what i am doing.

 

 

[minx]

erik,

 

my point was why do you care? it's obviously a valid ascent no matter what standards some guidebook author thinks.

 

shoot...don't make things so hard

[Peter_Puget]

Erik missed that first sentence about the guidebook author. If they know about it then it's an ascent doesn't seem to tricky to me.

[slaphappy]

Sometimes people do a ground up 1st then go back and clean the route years later because they feel it should get repeated. What Yoder routes are being "reclaimed"?

[lummox]

maybe the local guidebook author was just dissing your climbs cuz theyre real easy. supin like adventure climbing is scrambling.

[erik]

Peter_Puget said:

Erik missed that first sentence about the guidebook author. If they know about it then it's an ascent doesn't seem to tricky to me.

 

but peter they do know about the old ones. i am not talking about most the routes i do, but in general. reading the bolted cracks thead spurred this one on.

 

and what if the first ascentionist is able to free the line without hardware, but locals feel the need to place hardware. some routes on warrior wall come to mind.

 

 

 

 

[slaphappy]

Which routes on Warrior Wall?

[erik]

I DONT KNOW THE NAMES OF THEM.

ONE STARTS RIGHT OF JAZZY DOCUMENT WITH AN O/W THAT HAS BEEN BOLTED AND THERE IS A #3 CAMALOT PLACEMENT BELOW IT AND #4 CAM PLACEMENT ABOVE IT. EVEN WHEN YOU MOVE ONTO THE BLUNT ARETE YOU ARE STILL WITHIN A SAFE FALL OF YOUR GEAR. THEN THE SYSTEM HEADS UP, TO THE LEFT OF THE POPULAR SLAB CLIMB THAT IS .10A UP THERE. AND TOPS OUT THRU THE ROOF ON THE LEFT SIDE. ALL BOLTS CAN BE AVOIDED BY STAYING IN THE CRACKS.

 

 

[Peter_Puget]

Good point Slappy! Vague assertions are merely spray. Erik is this a bolt debate or FA Discussion?

[Off_White]

Well, I guess I've had that done to a route I helped put up years ago at Darrington. We did leave it in somewhat daunting condition, complete with 1/4" bolts, and the last one was mostly sticking out with no hanger (used a wired nut over the stud) and a 40' runout ahead. Came from drilling with a holder that had no handle, using a 12oz ball peen hammer with a cord tied to it. Drilling went sort of like: tap, tap, tap, fuck! as the hammer struck the hand holding the narrow bit holder, end eventually enough was enough. If we were diligent, we'd have gone back and tidied up. As it was, years later someone came in and poorly rap bolted (bolts not in the right place on the stance) much of the line, putting in lots of bolts but curiously leaving the scary stud in place. They stuck a hanging station in the middle of the best climbing, and generally made a mess of a sort of okay line. David Whitelaw has encouraged me to go back and restore things, essentially to do what we should have done so many years ago, but I get so little time for climbing I haven't gotten around to doing the work. I figure that makes the botched modern route at least partly my fault, due to a failure to do the right thing on the first ascent. Is leaving your first ascent a mungy dirty mess the same thing?

[slaphappy]

Iam not sure what route you speak of but it isn't on Warrior Wall. Are you talkin about Duty Dome perhaps?

[erik]

SLAPPY, PROLLY RIGHT, LIKE I SAIDI DONT KNOW THE NAMES OF MOST OF THE STUFF.

 

PETE, IT IS ALL ABOUT FA'S AND THE RESPECTING THEM AS THAT. TO RECONIZE WHAT THE FA'ERS DID AND LEAVE IT AT THAT. SOMETIMES PEOPLE ARE BOLDERER THEN OTHERS SOMETIMES PEOPLES PERCEPTION OF DANGEROUS IS DIFFERENT THEN OTHERS, SOMETIMES PEOPLES ABILITY TO FERRET OUT GEAR IS DIFFERENT THEN OTHERS.

 

I JUST THINK ONCE A PARTY HAS BEEN UP IT, THAT IS THAT. RESPECT IT.

 

 

 

 

 

[Cpt.Caveman]

Erik those may be adventure climbs but they are totally valid.

 

If someone doesn't want to acknowledge the routes well whatever.

 

A lot of times too when climbing on larger formations where there are no or one other route it can be hard to draw a topo from memory and get enough information about where other people might want to start the route and go. A photo with lines drawn might help.

 

As far as not cleaning and leaving anchors I think it is possibly the best style to do a route but that is obviously an opinoin.

 

If guidebook authors don't want to include the routes that's up to them. But a little mention of adventure routes is like dangling carrots. I think all authors should dangle some carrots around.

 

Have fun and keep it up.

[slaphappy]

Erik- many of these "reclaimed" routes you speak of are being cleaned by the same people that put them up MANY years previous. Is this not acceptable? I would also venture to guess that some of the adventure climbs you do were also done years ago and left unreported for one reason or another.

[erik]

NOPE, THAT IS GREAT! BUT WHAT OF DEVIATING FROM THE ORIGINAL STYLE? I AM A SHITTY ROCK CLIMBER, BUT I DO NOT THINK THAT THE ROUTES DESERVED TO BE MODIFIED.

 

 

[slaphappy]

erik said:

NOPE, THAT IS GREAT! BUT WHAT OF DEVIATING FROM THE ORIGINAL STYLE? I AM A SHITTY ROCK CLIMBER, BUT I DO NOT THINK THAT THE ROUTES DESERVED TO BE MODIFIED.

 

 

 

In many cases I agree and in others I do not. It depends on the route, the pro, the style it was put up in, etc. etc.

[EWolfe]

Off_White said:

Well, I guess I've had that done to a route I helped put up years ago at Darrington. We did leave it in somewhat daunting condition, complete with 1/4" bolts, and the last one was mostly sticking out with no hanger (used a wired nut over the stud) and a 40' runout ahead. Came from drilling with a holder that had no handle, using a 12oz ball peen hammer with a cord tied to it. Drilling went sort of like: tap, tap, tap, fuck! as the hammer struck the hand holding the narrow bit holder, end eventually enough was enough. If we were diligent, we'd have gone back and tidied up. As it was, years later someone came in and poorly rap bolted (bolts not in the right place on the stance) much of the line, putting in lots of bolts but curiously leaving the scary stud in place. They stuck a hanging station in the middle of the best climbing, and generally made a mess of a sort of okay line. David Whitelaw has encouraged me to go back and restore things, essentially to do what we should have done so many years ago, but I get so little time for climbing I haven't gotten around to doing the work. I figure that makes the botched modern route at least partly my fault, due to a failure to do the right thing on the first ascent. Is leaving your first ascent a mungy dirty mess the same thing?

It seems like the first ascentionist has an obligation to do several things:

 

1. If you are going to place fixed protection, do it so that the fixed protection is safe (I am not saying that the route needs to be made safe)

2. Insure that no one subsequently doing the route will be killed or seriously hurt by rockfall, again, if you have placed fixed protection.

 

Subsequent ascentionists should check with locals (if they see fixed...) and talk to the first ascentionist about redoing the fixed protection before doing so.

 

my dos centavos

[erik]

ANOTHER QUESTION THAT ARISES. WHAT IF THERE ARE NO REAL LOCALS TO A CLIMBING AREA? WHAT CONSTITUTES A LOCAL? CAN ONE ACHEVE LOCAL STATUS? WHAT IF LOCAL CLIMBERS DO NOT WANT TO BE CONSIDERED LOCAL? WHAT IF PEOPLE WHO CLAIM TO BE LOCAL ARE NOT?

 

QUESTIONS!!!!