Thoughts on the "Fast and Light" ethic from rc.com

[JayB]

Some interesting comments on the topic over there:

 

"Speed is safety, but that mantra is meaningless if you don't actually have speed."

 

'No. Experience is safety, and speed comes naturally as a result. WTF - so many people think they will somehow master complicated alpine terrain faster, with no experience what-so-ever to draw upon, if they bring that

lighter rope, a few less cams and no freak'n cloths. It takes a lot of years to learn to move fast over mixed terrain, and the guys who can, can do it with bricks in their pack and moron for a partner."

 

"I think you have the "Fast and light" ethic confused with the "Wannabe-fast, stupid and generally unsuccessful" ethic. "Fast and light" means, basically, no bivy sack on a V or harder route. The majority of people spouting "Fast and light" are usually going into the mountains for III and IV rock routes, so saying "Fast and light" sounds really silly anyway. Sure, some people pack more crap than others, but going dumb and naked isn't what "Fast and light" is about either.You ALWAYS have with you what it will take to bear a season's storm and an uncomfortable night. There are no exceptions, IMO. If you can't handle that, then you are dangerous and fully incapable of the objective."

 

I agree with the poster's sentiments, as it seems to me that there are more and more folks around who equate going "Fast & Light" with the simple act of skimping on gear, before they have aquired enough experience to make informed judgements about what level of equipment is appropriate for someone with their current levels of skill, experience, and fitness. It's always a guessing game, but it seems to me that the current infatuation with the F&L ethic has lead to a lot of folks overestimating themselves and underestimating the mountains, and the inevitable result will be more rescues and more fatalities.

 

I have learned over time (and several minor epics) that I am not an especially fast climber, so I always bring enough gear with me to suffer through a miserable night and live. Sometimes this is nothing more than a hefty-sack and a lighter, but if I'm on a big volcano in the winter it's more like the full monty.

 

I'd be interested to hear what other people's philosophy is on this one, and what sort of gear you dropped or added as your experience level increased.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cracked]

Good topic. I read Twight's book, and I've used several of his ideas. As anyone who's climbed with me knows, I am not very fast, nor light. What Twight's book made me realize is that 1. popular systems are not always best, and 2. going lighter doesn't always mean being less prepared.

 

I've cut many pounds off my climbing system over the past year, but I've done that by replacing heavy gear with light gear. For example, I don't use fleece anymore. Instead, I use the 'belay jacket/action suit' idea, which save a lot of weight. Usually my only extra layer are a rain jacket and my synthetic belay coat. I bought a 2lb down bag to replace a 4lb synthetic. I got a 15oz rain jacket instead of a 2lb monster. I sewed my own pack and saved about three pounds over my old pack. The list goes on. Light doesn't have to mean unprepared. And going lighter WILL make you faster.

[Bug]

cracked said:

Good topic. I read Twight's book, and I've used several of his ideas. As anyone who's climbed with me knows, I am not very fast, nor light. What Twight's book made me realize is that 1. popular systems are not always best, and 2. going lighter doesn't always mean being less prepared.

 

I've cut many pounds off my climbing system over the past year, but I've done that by replacing heavy gear with light gear. For example, I don't use fleece anymore. Instead, I use the 'belay jacket/action suit' idea, which save a lot of weight. Usually my only extra layer are a rain jacket and my synthetic belay coat. I bought a 2lb down bag to replace a 4lb synthetic. I got a 15oz rain jacket instead of a 2lb monster. I sewed my own pack and saved about three pounds over my old pack. The list goes on. Light doesn't have to mean unprepared. And going lighter WILL make you faster.

I have not read Twight's book but I've heard the legend. Anyway, Cracked is right on here. As I got older and more sedentary, it became more important to cut weight where I could. Cracked mentions some very simple ways. I would add that I bought a Kelty pack, one model down from the Cloud and love it. Simple, 5000 cu in, and 2.5 lbs. Stephenson Warmlite tents have been my favorite for thirty years. 3lbs 4oz and you can easily crowd 3 people in and weather a serious mountain storm.

I love polarguard 3D. my bag, pants, and jacket are 3D. My ice ax is lighter too. There are a wide variety of axes for different uses. Alpine harness instead of a padded crag harness with loops. Smaller lighter locking biner. Everything else has multiple uses. My stoppers are slung on slings I can use as runners. My helmet is a glorfied bicycle helmet by Grivel. I use bread bags on my feet and thereby keep my socks dry and clean. No extras are needed. I pack my water next to my back so I can melt snow as I climb.

Anything else out there?

[allthumbs]

Bug, don't your feet sweat like hell with bread bags on them?

[Beck]

i can get a two night winter trip kit into a 40liter backpack with room enough to pack a 12 pack along if i wanted- i think it's about 12 pounds winter, easily 10 pounds summer or less. fully equipped for the most heinous weather. but you'e absolutely, JayB. you cannot replace experience in the safety triangle for moving fast and light in the mountains. it takes discipline, fitness, and skills, not merely "golite" -ing it.

many of these 'ultralite' freaks you run into are usually dipknockers that don't know what a rucksack is or how a rucksack carries, and wouldn't be able to pitch a tarp if it came with a hang tag of how to do it...

 

yeah. it's mountain savvy that lets you move fast, light, and safe. talking to scott backes over dinner before his summer slide show, he talked about the way you get is there by discipline. those guys have it dialed in.

Edited September 11, 2003 by Beck

[Sphinx]

Beck said:

i can get a two night winter trip kit into a 40liter backpack with room enough to pack a 12 pack along if i wanted- i think it's about 12 pounds winter, easily 10 pounds summer or less. fully equipped for the most heinous weather.

Does this include technical climbing? Could you give us a gear list?

[allthumbs]

you're bad ass Beck -

'spose you make Teddy carry the tent and shit

fukka

[scrambler]

I think the "Fast and Light" ethic as popularized by Twight but originally espoused by Wild Things refers to a tradeoff in convenience, comfort or some ideal image of safety. A lighter pack means the absence of, e.g., a internal frame. The pack is lighter but that also means you won't be able to carry as much weight. The tradeoff, I believe, was the original conception of the ethic. Now, however, I think the idea is propagated as a business marketing ploy. Consider titanium ice axes, for instance. It's going to take a hefty investment of money to convert all of your metal gear from aluminum to titanium (titanium biners anyone?). God! I even seem to recall, if I'm not tripping, that there was event where models strolled down the walkway with titanium ice axes (mountain chic?). Tell me I was hallucinating!

[Terminal_Gravity]

I also agree with the basic premise of the above post. But the simple fact is, lighter is faster. I suspect that the benifit is equal or even greater for people of marginal fitness. Example... Mark Twight (when in shape) could get 4000 feet of vertical on a 25 degree slope of Neve with 10 pounds on his back in an hour. It would take me 2 and a half hours. But I am sure that there are people out there that would be sucking wind and take 8 hours. Add 50 pounds. MT & I will probably go half speed. He would keep going but I'll be pretty spent and ready for a rest. Fatty, however, will take all day and have to sleep it off and start sore and grumpy in the morning just to finish the first 4000 feet.

 

Something that is not often mentioned is that distance is increased even more than speed. If you are lighter you not only travel more distance per unit of time but you can travel longer before exaustion. So the gain is exponental.

 

Even of greater importance is on technical ground. A truly fit person might be able to safely pull a 5.8 layback move with 60 pounds on their back...my hand would pop. But I could layback 5.8 with 10 pounds on my back any day of the week.

 

The point is, light is just as, if not more, important for the non-extreme athlete.

 

All of the above not withstanding, "Light and Safe" can only come with a lot of experience. You have to know what you can do without and what you need. That experience doesn't even have to be in the mountains. (example: Wear your cloths and grab your 30 degree bag and spend the night in your neighborhood meat freezer at -10 degrees. You WILL suffer, but if you start to go hyper or the suffering is too great you have learned a lesson that will keep you alive in the mountains...as you walk out to your car, crank the heater, grab the wet wipes and find an all night starbucks for that Latte) If you didn't bring enough for what hits you...you die or get rescued. I treat the knowlege of what to bring as if it is just as important as the knowledge of technique, avy assesment, gear usage, nutrition etc. etc. etc.

 

[Sphinx]

I'd disagree with the marketing ploy business. TNF, Arc'teryx, Patagonia, etc are all still cranking out the ridiculously heavy shells that get worn to the mall. Yes, climbers are becoming more aware of weight, but I wouldn't say it's a marketing ploy. Either way, I don't care, as long as I can get the light stuff, I'm happy.

[cracked]

Again, light doesn't have to mean suffering. Just reduce the weight of each item of a 'normal' load, get rid of extraneous items, and you'll be as comfortable and have the same safety margin as before, but your pack will be much lighter.

[Beck]

no, that's just the non technical kit.

 

pack, sleeping bag, shelter,extra clothing, foampad, first aid, stove, cookit, headlamp, hydration/purification system with 1l water in it . those essentials. winter, 12 pound, summer under 10 pounds.

add technical stuff and it adds up fast from that point.

but light and less. Backes talked about the ultimate alpine rack they came up with. don't quote me, but i think it was 6 nuts, 3 pins and two cams? made up a complete alpine rack to him and mark twight when they sent the chezch direct in that 60 hour push....

[Peter_Puget]

Terminal_Gravity said:

 

Even of greater importance is on technical ground. A truly fit person might be able to safely pull a 5.8 layback move with 60 pounds on their back...my hand would pop. But I could layback 5.8 with 10 pounds on my back any day of the week.

 

 

Good point. On “BIG” things fast means free soloing or at least pretty close to it. In that respect light means increasing the difficulty in which you can climb that way. I think that as you get to the smaller climbs the whole light is right game changes. I remember reading an essay Alex McIntyre 25 years ago talking explicitly about the need for light and the need to be able to solo both up and down.

[scrambler]

Not sure if Czech Direct was the route but didn't Twight say that his speed of ascent was gained at the expense of drinking enough water? You either have to carry it or melt snow in the mtns, both of which will slow you down. I thought the main point behind Twight's philosophy of going light was to avoid the weather changes that could thwart your climb. If the rains started to fall on the first day, he said he'd turn around and attempt the climb another day.

[cracked]

Beck said:

no, that's just the non technical kit.

 

pack, sleeping bag, shelter,extra clothing, foampad, first aid, stove, cookit, headlamp, hydration/purification system with 1l water in it . those essentials. winter, 12 pound, summer under 10 pounds.

add technical stuff and it adds up fast from that point.

but light and less. Backes talked about the ultimate alpine rack they came up with. don't quote me, but i think it was 6 nuts, 3 pins and two cams? made up a complete alpine rack to him and mark twight when they sent the chezch direct in that 60 hour push....

Seems reasonable. Let's see:

1. 2lbs down bag.

2. 1lb bivy or 2lb tent (per person)

3. 3lbs extra clothes = 2lbs belay jacket, 1lb rain gear.

4. Stove+pot+etc=1.5lbs

5. Water purification 3 oz

6. First aid: tape: 2oz

7. Headlamp 8oz max.

that adds up to 8 or 9 lbs. That's reasonable. Now for my typical winter outing:

8. 3lbs ice tools.

9. 2 lbs crampons

10. 10lbs rope or rack.

 

Or

Skis, boots, skins = 25lbs at least. So I guess I'm not too light.

[cracked]

scrambler said:

Not sure if Czech Direct was the route but didn't Twight say that his speed of ascent was gained at the expense of drinking enough water? You either have to carry it or melt snow in the mtns, both of which will slow you down. I thought the main point behind Twight's philosophy of going light was to avoid the weather changes that could thwart your climb. If the rains started to fall on the first day, he said he'd turn around and attempt the climb another day.

No you're thinking of a climb he did on Hunter. On Denali they took several hydration/brew stops.

[Bug]

trask said:

Bug, don't your feet sweat like hell with bread bags on them?

If its cold out they are fine. If it's not cold out, I don't use them. I also use a thin capaline sock inside. There is a mechanism in the body that shuts down or diminishes sweet production at some point. I don't understand it but Stephenson Warmlite had a few pages about it in an old catalog of theirs. They were producing vapor barrier everything in the early seventies. Maybe sooner.

[Sphinx]

You stop sweating when humidity next to skin reaches 100%, according to Twight.

[cj001f]

Bug said:

I don't understand it but Stephenson Warmlite had a few pages about it in an old catalog of theirs. They were producing vapor barrier everything in the early seventies. Maybe sooner.

I was too busy concentratin on the, uh, "scenery" in the Warmlite catalogs to read - I've also found that I sweat too much for VBL's to work for me.

[Beck]

less is more, no doubt. those stephenson's warmlite got me mighty intrested in the "great outdoors" that's for sure!

 

but yes, less is more. I once spent 3 weeks living under a 4x7 ship's banner I heisted to make a shelter out of- smallest tarp I've ever used, but it worked as well as my current siltarps i've got and packed up just as small.

 

[Bug]

I sweat like a pig for obvious reasons but I still use VBL's in supercold. Like -20 and colder, it becomes reasonable for moderate skiing/climbing. I almost always use breadbags in cold temps even if I am sweating profusely just because it keeps my socks dry and therfor warmer. My mother grew up in Chicago and raised me in Montana using the bread bag technique as far back as I can remember. Of course, she also used to put them over my head befor she shoved me out the door. I always thought she had a quirky sense of humor.

[ken4ord]

OK here you go my 2 cents. First off I want to say it is not like you choose between light and fast or heavy and slow. There is a lot in between. Also peoples abilities vary as well from someone who works to get up 4th class to hardcore free soloist. With that being said I think anyone can practice light and fast climbing, yeah they might not be pulling it off like Backes, Twight, and others, but not many people are.

 

So light and fast is really a subjective term depending on many factors, route, ability, weather, equipment, strength, and endurance.

 

Definitely the easiest way to start practicing the light and fast mantra is equipment. Weight reduction through $$$ (self-explainable). Make sure everything is multi fuctional and just enough. My first aid is a lighter with duct tape wrapped around it and knife (clothing can be used as gauze or sling material, nut tool or sticks or pack pad can used as splinting material, ect.) I feel like I suceed with the light part when I exit the mountains with no to little food (depending on the season and route) and gotten to a point where I used all my clothes and still stayed reasonably warm.

 

I believe the next easiest way to attaining light and fast is training your body. Building core strength and endurance and being able to asess that, know when your breaking point is in a safe enviornment. I push myself on my bike to see what it is like when I hit the wall, that way I can remember that feeling and do something about it before it happens on a route or bail. I have also done endurance day hikes of 30+ miles, the longest being under 50. That way when the time come and I am fading on the mountain, I can keep telling myself that I can do it cause I have done it before.

 

The third part to light and fast is route, ability and conditions. I think you need to know what you can do, in what type of conditions, and how you can do it. That takes time and experience in the mountains. It also takes knowing your partner and their ability. That is something that you can't buy or train for in a gym.

 

Somebody mention that light and fast should not be about suffering, their partly right, but I feel like being in the mountains is about suffering whether you choose to go light and fast or heavy and slow. Come on, be real, we live pretty comfortably at home in a large shelter with multipule rooms, comfy bed, and indoor kitchen and bathroom, any type of food you want you can have delivered to your doorstep. There is no way you are going to have that comfort in the mountains, sorry being in the mountains is about suffering it makes us appreciate all the little things we have a home when we get back, it makes us stronger in spirit. That's not to say there are not other reasons to go into the mountains, like the scenery, or freedom that one experiences.

 

I guess the final thing I want to say is that light and fast is not the way to go everytime you go into the mountains. It is nice to kick back with a friend or two and take in the beauty of the mountains and take your time doing a route. There something to say about just taking it easy every once and a while.

[cracked]

I agree that just spending time in the mountains can be more rewarding than doing everything as fast as possible. But only occasionally. Coming back to the first point, though; you can go light and slow. Look at the ultralight backpackers. Light means faster for the same amount of effort, it doesn't mean you can't go out and spend an extra night out even though it's not absolutely necessary. I just like having a light pack. No matter what I'm doing.

[erik]

i just climb ever route like it is a crag route. sometimes you plan to spend the night and other times you choose not to. i think for the majority of the cascade routes that i enjoy and climb this is best way to make it happen. i am not particualry strong or fast, but luckily i can and have gotten some pretty neat routes done in good style(for me atleast!!) and those are the ones i feel best about.

 

[David_Parker]

Beck said:

with room enough to pack a 12 pack along if i wanted-

 

Dude, rasta bivy kit is WAY lighter!