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catbirdseat

"Reeling In" a Falling Leader

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I agree pretty much with Mattp however suppose a climber was to become really good at reeling in - he/she would become a hazard! For instance say I am twenty feet out from the belay and slip off (w/ no pro) while I am falling my belayer "reels in" 10 feet of rope. So ignoring slack I have now fallen 30 on ten feet of rope - a fall factor of three! Ouch!

 

PP bigdrink.gif

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Greg_W said:

 

I know, and have climbed with, people who use a GriGri to belay a leader. Actually, Erden used one when Goran Kropp killed himself. I don't like them when I'm leading; it seems that what you say is correct: it's a bit tougher to feed rope out quickly. I'm tall and make some quick, long moves and have felt the tug of my belayer not being able to keep up.

 

Actually Greg, Erden was using a Petzl Reverso not a Gri-Gri at the time of the accident. Also he stated that he thought he had pulled some of the slack through the belay device and then wrapped it around his arm giving him a nasty rope burn when it caught.

Anyone who choses to use a Gri-Gri to belay a trad leader is free to climb without me...

Also small point but i think many would appreciate you not refering to him as having killed himself, but rather him having died...

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this thread is way the fuck offbase. who the fuck cares how to 'reel in' a leader. the trick is in luring the fucker onto the sharp end in the first place.

fruit.giffruit.gif

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Gri-gri's work fine for belaying a leader. If you are paying adequate attention to your leader than you should be able to feed out rope adequately. I had problems with this at first but with practice it becomes easier.

 

I agree with most here that you shouldn't use a gri-gri for trad leading as the impact forces on your pro are increased due to the decreased dynamic properties of the belay device.

 

For this same reason I feel that reeling in the rope can be dangerous. I'm not a physics wonk but the only time I even think about reeling in slack is if there is a ledge or something the leader may hit on his fall. On overhanging routes I'd never reel in slack--too many ankles get broken that way.

 

Beginner climbers should just concentrate on locking off the leader.

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neversummer said:

Greg_W said:

 

I know, and have climbed with, people who use a GriGri to belay a leader. Actually, Erden used one when Goran Kropp killed himself. I don't like them when I'm leading; it seems that what you say is correct: it's a bit tougher to feed rope out quickly. I'm tall and make some quick, long moves and have felt the tug of my belayer not being able to keep up.

 

Actually Greg, Erden was using a Petzl Reverso not a Gri-Gri at the time of the accident. Also he stated that he thought he had pulled some of the slack through the belay device and then wrapped it around his arm giving him a nasty rope burn when it caught.

Anyone who choses to use a Gri-Gri to belay a trad leader is free to climb without me...

Also small point but i think many would appreciate you not refering to him as having killed himself, but rather him having died...

 

Oh, my bad; I heard that a GriGri was used. I apologize for the incorrect information.

 

Regarding your other bitch. I call it as I see it - Goran chose to do what he did and it ended in his death. HE engaged in the activity that KILLED him. Why sugar coat it so you can feel more warm and fuzzy?

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I'm with you, Lummox. But in Sport Climbing, in particular, many are apt to say that if you aren't falling you aren't trying.

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mattp said:

I'm with you, Lummox. But in Sport Climbing, in particular, many are apt to say that if you aren't falling you aren't trying.

 

That'd be true...

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mattp said:

I'm with you, Lummox. But in Sport Climbing, in particular, many are apt to say that if you aren't falling you aren't trying.

fuck that 'underacheiver' label bullshit. i had enough of that in hgh school. and miss banks my guidance counselor can suck my chub. the_finger.gif

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neversummer said:

Greg_W said:

 

I know, and have climbed with, people who use a GriGri to belay a leader. Actually, Erden used one when Goran Kropp killed himself. I don't like them when I'm leading; it seems that what you say is correct: it's a bit tougher to feed rope out quickly. I'm tall and make some quick, long moves and have felt the tug of my belayer not being able to keep up.

 

Actually Greg, Erden was using a Petzl Reverso not a Gri-Gri at the time of the accident. Also he stated that he thought he had pulled some of the slack through the belay device and then wrapped it around his arm giving him a nasty rope burn when it caught.

Anyone who choses to use a Gri-Gri to belay a trad leader is free to climb without me...

Also small point but i think many would appreciate you not refering to him as having killed himself, but rather him having died...

 

Hmmmmmmm...Having Belayed, and caught a number of leaders using a Gri Gri, and knowing of a number of other accidents that could have been prevented with it's use, I'd like to counter your sweeping statement about not leading with a gri gri.

 

Just yesterday at Index I SAFELY caught my leader, with no jolting fall, on pro, using my gri gri. I'm pretty sure that with an ATC or some such device, normal reaction time and the resulting slack in the system could have caused him to ground. As it was, I caught him as softly as jumping ont o a bed (just ask him...)

 

I'm sorry, but I take issue. I've never short roped anyone because of the gri gri, and I have successfully caught more than one person, on natural pro, using my gri gri.

 

It doesn't matter who is belaying with what device, when your leader dyno's or moves fast, or pulls up the rope to clip with lightening speed, it still takes the belayer's natural reaction time to feed the rope. Rope management 101.

 

Belaying a leader with a gri gri is an art, which takes a little getting used to. However, when you leader is smooth and deliberate with the movement, it is easy to "keep up" as well as to tell the difference between moving up, clipping, and falling, just by the feel of the rope.

 

So, Greg, don't blame the gri gri for your rope drag issues, or your height for feeling some amount of pull on the rope when you are leading, regardless of the belay device that is being used. Speaking from experience, you aren't always so cognizent of communicating effectively with your belayer, or being respectful of how your belayer has a difficult time telling the difference between falling and clipping and moving forward, when it all feels the same. blush.gif

 

Most importantly, I can name so many accidents that would not have been as tragic if a gri gri were used instead of a atc type device. I'm sure the debate will continue for ever, but I've kept more than one partner safe and completely unharmed with my Gri Gri.

 

 

 

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I belay and climb using gri gri's and atc's...

 

The only time i prefer an atc is when i have to rap...

 

Gri gri's are completely safe and an effective means of belaying...

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how is this arrogance? I wasn't trying to be a shit about it...perhaps you can point to me where you detected snobbery or sumpin? confused.gif

 

I've been using one for 9 years or so...never had any problems dropping someone or breaking their gear, etc.? And me myself have been caught by one on short falls on gear, near the ground (high fall factors) and on big falls w/ a lot of rope out...

 

Please, tell me what the problem is...or fuck off...

 

 

Edited by RuMR

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No piece of gear is "completely safe". To think otherwise displays an arrogance towards the dangers inherent to the sport. To think that the gear that you use is "completely safe" implys that YOU are "completely safe". You're not, none of us are, but if you think that you are, you become even more unsafe.

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A climber from Tacoma I met at Vantage pointed out a decided advantage of the GriGri. She said, "if a rock falls, an unconsious belayer will not be able to catch any fall (by the leader)". In other words, the GriGri will stop a fall every time.

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RuMR,

Perhaps it is the suggestion that belayed climbing with a gris gris is completely safe, when all of us know that "accidents do happen." But don't sweat it. I'll climb with you even if you insist on feeding out the rope rather than reeling it in -- as long as we're on overhanging terrain.

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Necronomicon said:

No piece of gear is "completely safe". To think otherwise displays an arrogance towards the dangers inherent to the sport. To think that the gear that you use is "completely safe" implys that YOU are "completely safe". You're not, none of us are, but if you think that you are, you become even more unsafe.

 

Whatever, necro...you are reading too much into what i wrote...I SHOULDA said, "IF USED PROPERLY, a gri gri is a safe and effective means of belaying..."

 

There...does that make you feel better? the_finger.gif Since you seem to be so great at reading into shit, you shoulda picked up on what i was trying to say...they are as effective as atc's generally, and sometimes more effective...and nowhere did i say anything about me as an operator...although i think i'm decent...

 

You don't know me, so don't make assumptions...

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mattp said:

RuMR,

Perhaps it is the suggestion that belayed climbing with a gris gris is completely safe, when all of us know that "accidents do happen." But don't sweat it. I'll climb with you even if you insist on feeding out the rope rather than reeling it in -- as long as we're on overhanging terrain.

 

ahhh matt...always the voice of reason...Anytime...and if you want, i'll keep you on a tight belay w/ a hip, atc, munter or your choice!!!

 

We do need to get out again sometime...i'll be up at index tomorrow...

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I must be an asshole right up there with Necro cause I read the statement "gri gris are COMPLETELY safe. . ." as sounding pretty arrogant, in not a bit ignorant as well.

 

There's been quite a few people hurt while being belayed using a gri gri. Many people belayed with them and took their hands completely off the rope to take photos, smoke a bowl or whatever. Leader falls, a piece of debris gets swept up into the camo on the rope and the leader decks. I can't think of any time I would use the term "completely safe" to describe any piece of climbing gear, technique or method.

 

Even sitting on my fat ass posting here is not completely safe.

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rbw...

 

Listen, if your belayer's smokin a bowl while you are climbing, i'd rather have him using a gri gri than anything else...and personally, wouldn't want him belaying...

 

When i said completely, that was regarding the device...obviously if the person operating it is clueless, inattentive, whatever, you got serious problems...

 

We are arguing semantics here...my bad for improperly stating my opinion of grigri's

 

and necro...get bent...

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RuMR said:

Necronomicon said:

No piece of gear is "completely safe". To think otherwise displays an arrogance towards the dangers inherent to the sport. To think that the gear that you use is "completely safe" implys that YOU are "completely safe". You're not, none of us are, but if you think that you are, you become even more unsafe.

 

Whatever, necro...you are reading too much into what i wrote...I SHOULDA said, "IF USED PROPERLY, a gri gri is a safe and effective means of belaying..."

 

You should have said "if used properly, a Gri Gri can reduce the dangers inherent in belaying a climber, but NO belay technique is completely safe."

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OK. Now Necro and Rumr have to make up too. laugh.gif

Thanks for the entertainment!

I would prefer to be belayed by mattp. Same kind of style. Everything changes every time anybody moves. The laws of physics have to be applied with different values in a variety of variables. I have looked a rock in the eye from three inches after a 20 ft fall. Screw the forces. If Kurtmo hadn't reeled, I'd be dead. bigdrink.gif

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Necronomicon said:

RuMR said:

Necronomicon said:

No piece of gear is "completely safe". To think otherwise displays an arrogance towards the dangers inherent to the sport. To think that the gear that you use is "completely safe" implys that YOU are "completely safe". You're not, none of us are, but if you think that you are, you become even more unsafe.

 

Whatever, necro...you are reading too much into what i wrote...I SHOULDA said, "IF USED PROPERLY, a gri gri is a safe and effective means of belaying..."

 

You should have said "if used properly, a Gri Gri can reduce the dangers inherent in belaying a climber, but NO belay technique is completely safe."

 

I give up...man, you must be a dick of teacher...anyone get a's in your class?

 

Sheesh...

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