Peter_Baer Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 I've got some miscellaneous nylon/perlon/spectra webbing and cord that's been sitting in the (dry & dark) closet for a couple of years. Some of it is dirty, some of it is still tied in knots. However, none of it has been exposed to significant wear & tear (abrasion, UV exposure, or excessive bending of the spectra cord). So the question is, how well does this stuff hold up when it's just sitting around at home like this? And on a related note, the rule of thumb seems to be that you retire all the gear involved in a big whipper: the rope, the harness, the pro that held the fall, etc. So what kind of fall qualifies for that? Does the pro have to be visibly deformed before it has to be replaced (I remember hearing that biners and other metal gear can suffer internally when dropped or otherwise stressed that weakens them without visible damage)? Do repeated smaller falls eventually add up to the equivalent of a big one? These may be silly questions about materials that have fantastic strength and are designed to take abuse... but I'm paranoid that a visual inspection of the stuff isn't enough to tell whether it really still is as strong as it was when it was new, and I can't afford to replace it whenever there's a doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 I have been wondering some of the same things myself. My take on the runners, etc. is that if you doubt them in any way, replace them. If they are only questionable, then use them for rappel anchors, toprope backups, tying your kayak to your roof, stuff that won't involve shockloading. Hardware is another story. I have not taken enough serious falls on my gear yet but I am guessing that a visual inspection with a thourough cleaning would reveal any reasons to retire nuts, cams and biners. Some of my gear was inherited from an unknown source (long story) so I am not sure how much abuse a few of my biners and cams have been subject too. I hope I am not too far off in relying on them after they pass a good checkout???? I have an old (10 years or so) 11mm rope my dad gave me a while back that I still use for a toprope sometimes. It is in good shape and has never taken a serious fall, he just retired it from lead use after it was a couple years old. Am I way off in relying on that beefy old thing for this purpose? Oh yeah, before I forget, Hello there Mikeadam sweetie, how are you??? I miss ya buddy my depreciated $.02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeclimb9 Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Peter Baer: the rule of thumb seems to be that you retire all the gear involved in a big whipper: the rope, the harness, the pro that held the fall, etc. I've never heard of that rule of thumb, and it makes little sense to me. The fall factor and rope dynamics (mostly affected by its diameter and manufacturer) are the relevant concerns, but I still wouldn't retire a harness, or hardware after most huge falls (recall that many gear manufacturers test their gear to half its falure rating. The stuff is quite capable of handling repeated stresses especially ones so gently applied as a fall --the elasticity of the rope eliminates many problems that would occur otherwise).Dropping hardware onto the ground is a whole other story. That kind of abuse can introduce microcracks which initiate fracture failure.With regard to your old webbing and cord, years ago DMM collected a bunch of "tat" from local cliffs in Wales and checked the tensile strength. Even the most faded piece of crap held several hundred pounds. Having said that, a friend of mine got the chop when an otherwise-sound-looking old piece of webbing failed. That stuff is cheap to replace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobody Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 freeclimb9, regarding the "micro cracks" from dropped gear. I have heard this one over and over and over, yet I have never seen anything to actually support this. Do you know of any articles or other sources of info that discuss this? I am curious. Years ago I worked in a shop. All of the manufacturer's reps (that I spoke with) said it was a wife's tale and I do recall seeing something in writing from one of them that seemed to say it was bogus as well. (Can't remember which company though?) Any way, if anyone has any info or knows where we could get it I am curious. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 I've heard somewhere (probably a gear manufacturer) that nylon degrades with time a given percent of it's strength. (something like 10%, even when in the perfect storage like you mentioned) Given that, after 3 years it would lose about 27% of its strength. (The math is too complicated to describe why it is not 30%)I've got webbing sitting in the closet too and I have no worries about it. But I would guess that 5 years is too long as some doubt begins to surface which is to much doubt. For protection, inspection is needed periodically. Taking a big whipper is not grounds for retiring pro. If so we would have to replace bolts often. One time at band camp, someone else found a large crack in one of my camalots. Luckily, I only got a dose of embarrasment instead of hitting the deck with pro failure. I usually check the gear once a season for obvious cracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glacier_dup1 Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 I think BD did some test a while ago with dropped 'biners and did not find any significant strength loss or microfractures - Regardless, I tend to follow the 'gut' rule for gear retirement - do I trust it? So plenty of dropped or found biners are delegated for bail usage, and webbing and slings get replaced every few to several years (not too scientific). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialed Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 From what I've heard, BD engineers say you can drop your biners off El Cap and use 'em again. I think that micro fracture crap is a bunch of BS. I've taken mad whippers on most of my pieces and I'd do it again, and again, and again. But it is a rational question about when to replace webbing. If its been in your closet don't worry about it. My rock pro and draws get used more than Capt. Caveman's mom, maybe I should replace that 7-year-old factory webbing on my gear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 if you drop gear, even from your hand onto the carpet, it becomes unsafe and should be retired. please send all such gear you want retired to me as i can guarantee it will not fall into the hands of climbers and be reused again and cause accidents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobinc Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 This is a very good question, especially when entire ropes are under consideration. I've been skeptical that it would be necessary to retire a rope after 3-5 yrs even if it had been stored well and not fallen on, but people who should know this, like Jim Nelson, have told me I should replace that rope. Of course, Jim sells ropes for a living, but he's also about the lowest key salesman I've ever run across. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 I bought my first rope when I was 17. It took tons of abuse: my high school friends and I top roped every choss pile we could find. It was a 45 meter 11 mm rope-- the cheapest chord I could find in the "sale " pile at the local shop. After climbing for four years, during which time I learned to lead, to fall, and even once belayed a friend buildering into a 3rd story window in our college dorm, I took my first trip overseas-- Australia. I spent most of my time climbing at Arapiles where I took my first real fall-- over 40 feet. I managed to log a lot of air time on that trip. The rope was at its end, so to speak. I had no money, but I wanted to travel some more so I decided to ask around and see if anyone would buy my rope. Just before I went home I sold my rope to a Kiwi named Simon. By that time it was about 13mm in diameter, furry like a catapillar and even shorter than when I first bought it. If he were an American he'd probably sue me because it was the perfect time to retire that POS, but I managed to get back 60% of what I paid for it. As far as I know it never broke. I've heard that if you buy a rope and never use it, just store it away in your dark dry closet, you should retire it after 8 years. Or you can just sell it on a road trip to some simple Simon who is a real dirtbag climber, not just a wannabe like myself. Here's to dirtbag climbers! They never worry about their gear getting too old! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpine_Tom Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 I've heard the same thing, that nylon looses its stretchiness over time, even when the rope isn't used. Duane Raleigh says something about that in his knot book. (Subsequently, a guy at the downtown REI gear counter told me that wasn't true, so you choose which experts you trust.) On the other hand, I asked a few months ago on this website if anyone had ever heard of a rope breaking, and no one responded that they had. 'course, nylon is different than perlon, spectra or the other miracle fabrics that PB mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 i saw a 11mm break once but it was in a tug of war with 30 climbers pulling on each end of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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