Blake Posted October 16, 2003 Posted October 16, 2003 Can't tell from that picture, I've never been there myself. The lake is visible on the green trails map for that section (Lucerne I think) and is the headwaters of the S. Fork Bear Creek according to the map. Quote
Dru Posted October 16, 2003 Posted October 16, 2003 (edited) oops! Edited October 16, 2003 by Dru Quote
klenke Posted October 16, 2003 Posted October 16, 2003 Yeah, that picture I posted is of the tarn at the head of the South Fork of Bear Creek. Â Poll: Is this picture of a lake or a tarn by your definition? Â Â Â Â Quote
AllYouCanEat Posted October 16, 2003 Posted October 16, 2003 If that lake counts then the pond, puddle on top of Rainier (steam caves) would be the highest. That looks like a tarn to me. Quote
forrest_m Posted October 16, 2003 Posted October 16, 2003 isn't a tarn a lake that is completely enclosed by rock? whereas a lake may be in dirt, sand, etc.? Â speaking of lakes and LOTR place names, isn't there a Galadriel's Pool somewhere in the cascades? i can't for the life of me remember where, though... Quote
Dru Posted October 16, 2003 Posted October 16, 2003 technically, a "tarn" is a lake in an alpine cirque  I think klenke means is it a pond or a lake.  i think it would have to be permanent water feature to be counted. lakes which drain away or change shape or only form during summer snowmelt or periodic ice-surface features should not count.   Quote
klenke Posted October 16, 2003 Posted October 16, 2003 Dru, that's why I put the third option in the poll ("It is a tarn AND a lake"). My Unabridged Random House dictionary, which is by no means definitive since other dictionaries may say something else, defines as follows: Â 'tarn: a small moutain lake or pool, esp. one in a cirque.' My Abridged Webster's says, 'a small steep-banked mountain lake or pool.' This second definition sort of jives with Forrest's comment. Â Meanwhile, Random House says a lake is 'a body of fresh or salt water of considerable size, surrounded by land.' My Webster's says pretty much the same thing. Now what is considered considerable is what remains subjective. Â In terms of defining the highest lake in the state, one might wish to qualify with "highest lake that has an official name." Clearly, this lake (so called "Cardinal Lake" but probably not officially) is not a named lake on a map. If it is, it shouldn't be. Quote
snafflehound Posted October 16, 2003 Posted October 16, 2003 I'll still stick with Rainier.{The challenge of Rainier, p.190} If a geologist {I assume} researching the area calls it a lake it's good enough for me. Who better to quantify what's a lake and what isn't. The others mentioned I think, are far nicer places to visit though. Quote
dkemp Posted October 16, 2003 Posted October 16, 2003 Who better to quantify what's a lake and what isn't. Â A limnologist? Quote
klenke Posted October 16, 2003 Posted October 16, 2003 "Who better to quantify what's a lake and what isn't." Â Not if he's an irresponsible geologist or dumbass geologist. Quote
dkemp Posted October 16, 2003 Posted October 16, 2003 Limnology, oh yeah... Limnology... Â Hey, I aint often a smartass. Â Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 20, 2003 Posted October 20, 2003 a tarn is a lake but a lake is not necessarily a tarn- the dictionary on the web is vague as I guess one would be for a printed version.  The key seems to be-" especially one formed by glaciers."  But if snow melted inside a crevasse it could also fit that definition. It requires more thought than a dictionary...  <hr>   http://www.dictionary.com   tarn ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tärn) n. A small mountain lake, especially one formed by glaciers.   -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Middle English tarne, of Scandinavian origin.]     lake1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lk) n. A large inland body of fresh water or salt water. A scenic pond, as in a park. A large pool of liquid: a lake of spilled coffee on my desk.   Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 20, 2003 Posted October 20, 2003 It seems to me that a tarn would logically be a small body of water that forms a pond or small lake below or at the glacier line ; perhaps even adjacent or above in some instances annnually. Â This would rule out lots of things. Â Discuss Quote
Dru Posted October 20, 2003 Posted October 20, 2003 if it's not in a cirque - it's not a tarn  that's what my geomorphology textbook says Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 20, 2003 Posted October 20, 2003 Dru said: if it's not in a cirque - it's not a tarn  that's what my geomorphology textbook says  This includes more probababilities to the definition. But then is cirque an easy definition? I think so.  cirque ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sûrk) n. A steep bowl-shaped hollow occurring at the upper end of a mountain valley, especially one forming the head of a glacier or stream. Also called cwm.   Quote
Dru Posted October 20, 2003 Posted October 20, 2003 yes. one can call lakes that are not in cirques "tarns" but then it is not a definition but a poetic analogy such as a simile or metaphor. Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 20, 2003 Posted October 20, 2003 I'll give it a try: Â tarn- a small body of water that forms a pond or small lake normally in a cirque and often below or at a glacier sublimation zone; annually or regularly (sometimes seemingly permanent to a human's experience); often referred to as an analogy of this sort usually above or near timberline. Quote
snafflehound Posted October 21, 2003 Posted October 21, 2003 Limnologist, You learn something new every day. I'm not very educated but I'll have a crack at it. I still think that's a lake on Rainier. I found these on the web;  Limnologist study the 'physics and chemistry of the water and the biology of plants and animals in it'  The scientific study of the 'life and phenomena of fresh water', especially lakes and ponds  A limnologist is a person who studies 'inland waters'  It seems like a Geologist would know all about holes in the ground and a Limnologist would know all about the water that's in them. If I wanted to know the difference between a fjord, inlet, bay or sound I'd want to ask a geologist not an oceanographer, right? Many of you folks spent good money for what you know so I'm all ears {so to speak}. Now I'm curious. I think it’s worth a trip up there next summer to go exploring.  Quote
klenke Posted October 25, 2003 Posted October 25, 2003 Okay, for vulcanology considerations: Â What lake in the North Cascades is believed to be the site of a former ancient stratovolcano long since eroded away? This volcano is associated with the Monte Cristo volcanics and was in its heyday between 36 and 25 million years ago. Â Harry: you can't respond right away because you know the answer first-hand. Quote
marylou Posted October 25, 2003 Posted October 25, 2003 I think Cavey has it right in reference to common usage. Â Usually a tarn is in a cirque, but there are a lot of small bodies of water that are up high, but not ensconced in stone, that are known as tarns. They are a result of runoff, no doubt, but may have a veggie shoreline and/or a bottom comprised of dirt. Â They are usually not the best tarns, but they are too small to be lakes, and too clean to be ponds. Quote
Dru Posted October 26, 2003 Posted October 26, 2003 Back on topic.... Â Here is a photo i took today. Digital, cropped from larger image, not all that good but you can see the unclimbed E faces of Moxes, Spickard and the SE buttress of Peak 8800 and the unclimbed NE face of Rahm... hope to try the latter this winter or spring if conditions permit... i could see a white line bottom to top today. Â Quote
wayne Posted October 27, 2003 Posted October 27, 2003 Sweet photo! It would be cool to see that with light on the walls and up close! Quote
Dru Posted October 27, 2003 Posted October 27, 2003 i will go up there and bivi just to get the morning sun shot next time Quote
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