Greg_W Posted July 1, 2003 Posted July 1, 2003 erik said: kiwi it is not americanization.... it is the anglo xhristain ethic being taught to people....you know the one, where you tell on people, hate others you do not understand and attempt to force your weakass on them so that you can stand above them with a smirk of dominance.... its really simple! Actually, I think we can thank the English for originating this one. I disagree in the present, I think there is a certain amount of Export America going on. We should be exporting the illegal aliens instead. Quote
JGowans Posted July 1, 2003 Author Posted July 1, 2003 mattp said: It looks like an interesting book. Does the review I found here properly characterize its message? Yes, I'd say that's a fairly accurate summary of the contents. Quote
RuMR Posted July 1, 2003 Posted July 1, 2003 JGowans said: RuMR said:I have 2 questions for you: "What exactly would you change about the US system (of course recognizing that there will always be the inherent problems w/ large beaurocracies) and why?" And my second question is this: "Who else on this entire planet is doing a better job of it?" Good points by you and RobBob. I've lived here most of my adult life, but probably won't ever quite understand the desire by most Americans to nuke other nations as a way to exact revenge. That's neither here nor there though. I do understand the well of emotion. What would I change and why? - For one, the mass media. Clear Channel communication owns most of the airwaves in this country. This conglomerate is actually run by a few guys from Texas that happen to be good buddies of GW. I'd introduce some real competition into that industry. Currently, it seems that the only source for news is NPR which is quite a sad state of affairs given that so few people bother to listen to that station. Same principles apply to TV. When was the last time we actually saw a news piece about foreign countries that wasn't about us helping them, or bombing them? No, they'd rather talk about the latest Sony camcorder (I saw this yesterday) or talk about two cute little kittens born in Seattle. Where's the news? Fuck the entertainment aspect, and give us the news. Local, national, international, unbiased, objective news where we are free to filter it ourselves. Very good point...I have cable and try to catch BBC's version of the news every evening...its not the best but its definitely different...Your issue is mainly one w/ CORPORATE America, not the government...Do you recall the Clinton scandal? I believe he was literally torn apart by the media much to Europe's amusement...so it does go both ways... - I would reduce the amount of aid we give to Israel. Currently it stands at $4Billion a year. Surely with that level of aid, we hold enough leverage to put an end to the troubles there. I totally agree w/ you here...and i think we need to actually send aid to the palestinians as well...but there is a total hotbed there and just about anything you do is gonna be fucked...so what do you do then?????????? Kinda like Ireland, and i guess the UK establishment is doing miracles there... - I would make an honest and sincere attempt to bridge the gulf between blacks and whites in this country. Britain has just as much of a guilty history as the U.S., yet blacks are much more integrated into society there than here. If it takes raising taxes to give them decent housing and education then so be it. Agree once more w/ you here as well...but you must recognize that things changing is not an overnight timeframe...My dad, for example, thinks affirmative action is horseshit and i've argued w/ him till i'm blue in the face...I will NEVER change his mind...Now i ask you this...what age are most of the elected officials? And how fast are they going to move - I'd implement some very stringent gun laws. Currently, the U.S. experiences some 11,000 gun deaths every year. Canada has about 60. No comment...my family hunts, i have, but don't anymore, so have no need for a gun... - I'd like to see us approach foreign nations with a view to establishing partnerships versus one way highways that allow our corporations to reap their natural resources for a pittance. agree again, but you are talking more about CORPORATE america (w/ help from the government)...Often times, your "foreign governments" are just a brutal regime or worse, even a brutal person...so you really think any equity is really gonna be achieved?????????? Don't think so... - I'd like us to review how we operate within the international sphere of politics. Ratifying the Kyoto treaty, signing the U.N.s Child's Bills of Rights (only Iraq and the U.S. have not signed it), signing the anti-landmine bills (again, only the U.S. and I think Iran have not signed this). I could go on, but the basic point I'm making is that we only sign bills pertaining to free trade and mock every other bill that comes our way regarding human rights, torture, executing children etc. See points about other "foreign governments"... - I could think of a few more things, but let's keep the debate going... YOu casually neglected to answer my second question... Its so easy to sit back and critique a working process but pretty fricken' hard to actually produce any real improvements... Quote
RobBob Posted July 1, 2003 Posted July 1, 2003 Hoo Boy, JG! You're a nothing if not ballsey as a greencard-carrying resident consultant! Whilst you are clearly a left-leaning so-and-so, I'll agree with you on media, on leveraging aid to Israel, even on gun control. As for private industry pillaging abroad, Hell, we learned that from the UK! And we have tried to close the gulf between races by throwing money at it. Newsflash: It ain't working. Until we solve the problem created by fatherless households, IMO we will continue to have a huge problem with black males jobless and in prison in this country. It is sad, but it is a fact. Quote
JGowans Posted July 1, 2003 Author Posted July 1, 2003 RuMR said:YOu casually neglected to answer my second question... Its so easy to sit back and critique a working process but pretty fricken' hard to actually produce any real improvements... I didn't mean to ignore your second question. I suppose it depends on what one's priorities are. At any given point in one's life, one's priorities are different. A 25 year old has way different needs than a 65 year old retiree. However, in looking at the big picture, I think a hybrid of capitalism and socialism should be looked at. Sweden has a great social system, and takes a decidedly neutral role in military interventions. They are not without their problems. The UK is the most capitalist-like nation in Europe and one that I think has a lot going for it but for the current government's tendancy to march in step with G.W. (and could soon pay the price for it due to the current gonvernment enquiry into whether they misled the public over the Iraq war). The point I'm making is that you're right...no-one nation is perfect. However, with the vast power that the U.S. has, I think it has a unique opportunity and indeed, responsibility to help shape the world for generations to come in such a way that promotes global partnerships and establishes global guiding principles that are not designed to solely benefit the corporations of this country. Quote
JGowans Posted July 1, 2003 Author Posted July 1, 2003 RobBob said: Hoo Boy, JG! You're a nothing if not ballsey as a greencard-carrying resident consultant! I am left-leaning. However, I don't want to come across as an ungrateful foreigner living here. That's far from the case. I do have a stake and an interest in the welfare of this nation. I care also though about our role in international politics and the influence we have on the rest of the world. I think that we create a lot of our own problems, and while we have the resources and means to solve them, we don't make a sincere effort to solve them because it doesn't always jive with our over-arching mission of economic prosperity. Quote
RuMR Posted July 1, 2003 Posted July 1, 2003 JGowans said: RuMR said:YOu casually neglected to answer my second question... Its so easy to sit back and critique a working process but pretty fricken' hard to actually produce any real improvements... I didn't mean to ignore your second question. I suppose it depends on what one's priorities are. At any given point in one's life, one's priorities are different. A 25 year old has way different needs than a 65 year old retiree. However, in looking at the big picture, I think a hybrid of capitalism and socialism should be looked at. Sweden has a great social system, and takes a decidedly neutral role in military interventions. They are not without their problems. The UK is the most capitalist-like nation in Europe and one that I think has a lot going for it but for the current government's tendancy to march in step with G.W. (and could soon pay the price for it due to the current gonvernment enquiry into whether they misled the public over the Iraq war). The point I'm making is that you're right...no-one nation is perfect. However, with the vast power that the U.S. has, I think it has a unique opportunity and indeed, responsibility to help shape the world for generations to come in such a way that promotes global partnerships and establishes global guiding principles that are not designed to solely benefit the corporations of this country. Hey....just so you know...I agree w/ you on about 95% of what you are saying in PRINCIPLE, although in practice i think it will not be achieved in my lifetime... As i've said before, we have the best system yet, but it is faaaaaaar from perfect...and probably never will be... Take your guncontrol issue...are you ever gonna be able to convince GregW that he should give up his guns??? my take on that is that they are central to the way he defines his life, correct or not...you, on the other hand, have a polar opposite view...so one of you will not be happy depending on what system is implemented...now scale that phenomenon up to a global size and you see what is left? A COMPLETE CLUSTERFUCK THAT WILL NEVER MAKE EVEN A MAJORITY HAPPY... Quote
mattp Posted July 1, 2003 Posted July 1, 2003 RuMr- You seem to suggest that there might be someting wrong with Gowan or somebody else criticising the U.S. for its' foreign policy. Is that true? And, in the context of the discussion of why people hate us, do you think our foreign policy has ANYTHING to do with it? Quote
RuMR Posted July 1, 2003 Posted July 1, 2003 mattp said: RuMr- You seem to suggest that there might be someting wrong with Gowan or somebody else criticising the U.S. for its' foreign policy. Is that true? And, in the context of the discussion of why people hate us, do you think our foreign policy has ANYTHING to do with it? Nope...Please read what i've said...i've said we are flawed, but i just don't think it can be fixed, period. Maybe improved, but not fixed... Foreign policy? WTF is that? How are you gonna deal w/ certain regimes? W/ money? W/ war? W/ what? I believe that a lot of the problems in this world are actually not the fault of the US (many are) but somehow, we take more than the lion's share of the blame and it flat pisses me off...We've fucked a lot of shit up, no doubt...but nobody, and i mean nobody, gives us any credit for anything at all... Quote
Alpinfox Posted July 1, 2003 Posted July 1, 2003 I haven't read the whole thread, so maybe someone already mentioned this, but maybe folks around the world hate us because we drop bombs on them? Quote
RuMR Posted July 1, 2003 Posted July 1, 2003 yeah, true...usually justified after they blow something up... again...I said i disagreed w/ Iraq Quote
RobBob Posted July 1, 2003 Posted July 1, 2003 People hate not being in control. They resent the US's strength with or without their input. "The arrogance of those Americans!" A few years ago we hated (but in many cases, secretly admired) the Japanese and their economy. Now they are a non sequitor. Envy. Quote
RuMR Posted July 1, 2003 Posted July 1, 2003 ahhh...i'm bagging out of this discussion...its pointless... Quote
JGowans Posted July 1, 2003 Author Posted July 1, 2003 This might shed some light on our current policies. Taken from "Stupid White Men" We're number one in millionaires We're number on in billiionaires We're number one in military spending We're number one in firearm deaths We're number one in beef production We're number one in per capita energy use We're number one in carbon dioxide emissions (more than Australia, Brazil, Canada, France, India, UK combined) We're number one in total per capita municipal waste We're number one in hazardous waste produced (by a factor of 20 times our nearest competitor Germany) We're number one in oil consupmption We're number one in natural gas consumption We're number one in the least amount of tax revenue generated (as a % of GDP) We're number one in the least amount of federal and state government expenditure (as a % of GDP) We're number one in budget deficit (as a % of GDP) We're number one in daily per capita consumption of calories We're number one in lowest voter turnout We're number one in number of political parties represented in the lower or single house We're number one in recorded rapes (by a factor of almost 3 times our nearest competitor, Canada) We're number one in injuries or deaths from road accidents (almost twice as many as Canada) We're number one in births to mothers under the age of twenty We're number one in the number of international human rights treaties not signed We're number one among countries in the United Nations with a legally constituted government to not ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of a Child We're number one of known executions of child offenders We're number one in likelihood of children under 15 to die from gunfire We're number one in likelihood of children under 15 to commit suicide with a gun We're number one in lowest 8th-grade math scores We're number one in becoming the first society in history in which the poorest group in the population are children. Quote
RuMR Posted July 1, 2003 Posted July 1, 2003 Yeah...we're just fucked aren't we...I'm going to move to kenya... Quote
Greg_W Posted July 1, 2003 Posted July 1, 2003 RobBob said: A few years ago we hated (but in many cases, secretly admired) the Japanese and their economy. Now they are a non sequitor. Envy. That was pure jealousy, for sure. Remember that we reestablished their economy and their industrial base after the war. We set up their manufacturing and taught them statistical sampling in quality control. They did what the behemoth Big 3 chose not to: pay attention to quality and build a quality car for less. That's why we were envious. Quote
RuMR Posted July 1, 2003 Posted July 1, 2003 Greg_W said: RobBob said: A few years ago we hated (but in many cases, secretly admired) the Japanese and their economy. Now they are a non sequitor. Envy. That was pure jealousy, for sure. Remember that we reestablished their economy and their industrial base after the war. We set up their manufacturing and taught them statistical sampling in quality control. They did what the behemoth Big 3 chose not to: pay attention to quality and build a quality car for less. That's why we were envious. But we sure don't get any credit for rebuilding Japan...do we? Quote
JGowans Posted July 1, 2003 Author Posted July 1, 2003 Alpinfox said: I haven't read the whole thread, so maybe someone already mentioned this, but maybe folks around the world hate us because we drop bombs on them? You mean because of all these military interventions? SOUTH DAKOTA 1890 (-?) Troops: 300 Lakota Indians massacred at Wounded Knee. ARGENTINA 1890 Troops: Buenos Aires interests protected. CHILE 1891 Troops: Marines clash with nationalist rebels. HAITI 1891 Troops: Black workers revolt on U.S.-claimed Navassa Island defeated. IDAHO 1892 Troops: Army suppresses silver miners' strike. HAWAII 1893 (-?) Naval, troops: Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed. CHICAGO 1894 Troops: Breaking of rail strike, 34 killed NICARAGUA 1894 Troops: Month-long occupation of Bluefields. CHINA 1894-95 Naval, troops: Marines land in Sino-Jap War. KOREA 1894-96 Troops: Marines kept in Seoul during war. PANAMA 1895 Troops, naval: Marines land in Colombian province. NICARAGUA 1896 Troops: Marines land in port of Corinto. CHINA 1898-1900 Troops, boxer. Rebellion fought by foreign armies. PHILIPPINES 1898-1910(-?) Naval, troops: Seized from Spain, killed 600,000 Filipinos. CUBA 1898-1902(-?) Naval, troops: Seized from Spain, still hold Navy base. PUERTO RICO 1898(-?) Naval, troops: Seized from Spain, occupation continues. GUAM 1898(-?) Naval, troops: Seized from Spain, still used as base. MINNESOTA 1898(-?) Troops: Army battles Chippewa at Leech Lake. NICARAGUA 1898 Troops: Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur. SAMOA 1899(-?) Troops: Battle over succession to throne. NICARAGUA 1899 Troops: Marines land at port of Bluefields. IDAHO 1899-1901 Troops: Army occupies Coeur d'Alene mining region. OKLAHOMA 1901 Troops: Army battles Creek Indian revolt. PANAMA 1901-14 Naval, troops: Broke off from Colombia 1903, annexed Canal Zone 1914-99. HONDURAS 1903 Troops: Marines intervene in revolution. DOMINICAN REP. 1903-04 Troops: U.S. interests protected in Revolution. KOREA 1904-05 Troops: Marines land in Russo-Japanese War. CUBA 1906-09 Troops: Marines land in democratic election. NICARAGUA 1907 Troops: "Dollar Diplomacy" protectorate set up. HONDURAS 1907 Troops: Marines land during war with Nicaragua. PANAMA 1908 Troops: Marines intervene in election contest. NICARAGUA 1910 Troops: Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto. HONDURAS 1911 Troops: U.S. interests protected in civil war. CHINA 1911-41 Naval, troops: Continuous occupation with flare-ups. CUBA 1912 Troops: U.S. interests protected in Havana. PANAMA 19l2 Troops: Marines land during heated election. HONDURAS 19l2 Troops: Marines protect U.S. economic interests. NICARAGUA 1912-33 Troops, bombing: 20-year occupation, fought guerrillas. MEXICO 19l3 Naval: Americans evacuated during revolution. DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1914 Naval: Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo. COLORADO 1914 Troops: Breaking of miners' strike by Army. MEXICO 1914-18 Naval, troops: Series of interventions against nationalists. HAITI 1914-34 Troops, bombing: 19-year occupation after revolts. DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1916-24 Troops: 8-year Marine occupation. CUBA 1917-33 Troops: Military occupation, economic protectorate. WORLD WAR I 19l7-18 Naval, troops: Ships sunk, fought Germany RUSSIA 1918-22 Naval, troops: Five landings to fight Bolsheviks. PANAMA 1918-20 Troops: "Police duty" during unrest after elections. YUGOSLAVIA 1919 Troops: Marines intervene for Italy against Serbs in Dalmatia. HONDURAS 1919 Troops: Marines land during election campaign. GUATEMALA 1920 Troops: 2-week intervention against unionists. WEST VIRGINIA 1920-21 Troops, bombing: Army intervenes against mineworkers. TURKEY 1922 Troops: Fought nationalists in Smyrna (Izmir). CHINA 1922-27 Naval, troops: Deployment during nationalist revolt. HONDURAS 1924-25 Troops: Landed twice during election strife. PANAMA 1925 Troops: Marines suppress general strike. CHINA 1927-34 Troops: Marines stationed throughout the country. EL SALVADOR 1932 Naval: Warships sent during Farabundo Marti revolt. WASHINGTON DC 1932 Troops: Army stops WWI vet bonus protest. WORLD WAR II 1941-45 Naval, troops, bombing, nuclear: Fought Axis for 3 years; 1st nuclear war. DETROIT 1943 Troops: Army puts down Black rebellion. IRAN 1946 Nuclear threat: Soviet Troops: told to leave north (Iranian Azerbaijan). YUGOSLAVIA 1946 Naval: Response to shooting-down of U.S. plane. URUGUAY 1947 Nuclear threat: Bombers deployed as show of strength. GREECE 1947-49 Command operation: U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war. CHINA 1948-49 Troops: Marines evacuate Americans before Communist victory. GERMANY 1948 Nuclear threat: Atomic-capable bombers guard Berlin Airlift. PHILIPPINES 1948-54 Command operation: CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion. PUERTO RICO 1950 Command operation: Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce. KOREA 1950-53 Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats: U.S.& South Korea fight China & North Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in 1950, & vs. China in 1953. Still have bases. IRAN 1953 Command operation: CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah. VIETNAM 1954 Nuclear threat: Bombs offered to French to use against siege. GUATEMALA 1954 Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat: CIA directs exile invasion after new government nationalizes U.S. company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua. EGYPT 1956 Nuclear threat, troops: Soviets told to keep out of Suez crisis; Marines evacuate foreigners LEBANON 1958 Troops, naval: Marine occupation against rebels. IRAQ 1958 Nuclear threat: Iraq warned against invading Kuwait. CHINA 1958 Nuclear threat: China told not to move on Taiwan isles. PANAMA 1958 Troops: Flag protests erupt into confrontation. VIETNAM 1960-75 Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats: Fought South Vietnam revolt & North Vietnam; 1-2 million killed in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in 1968 and 1969. CUBA 1961 Command operation: CIA-directed exile invasion fails. GERMANY 1961 Nuclear threat: Alert during Berlin Wall crisis. CUBA 1962 Nuclear threat: Naval blockade during missile crisis; near-war with USSR. LAOS 1962 Command operation: Military buildup during guerrilla war. PANAMA 1964 Troops: Panamanians shot for urging canal's return. INDONESIA 1965 Command operation: Million killed in CIA-assisted army coup. DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1965-66 Troops, bombing: Marines land during election campaign. GUATEMALA 1966-67 Command operation: Green Berets intervene against rebels. DETROIT 1967 Troops: Army battles Blacks, 43 killed. UNITED STATES 1968 Troops: After civil rights activist King is shot; over 21,000 soldiers in cities. CAMBODIA 1969-75 Bombing, troops, naval: Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos. OMAN 1970 Command operation: U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion. LAOS 1971-73 Command operation, bombing: U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside. SOUTH DAKOTA 1973 Command operation: Army directs Wounded Knee siege of Lakotas. MIDEAST 1973 Nuclear threat: World-wide alert during Mideast War. CHILE 1973 Command operation: CIA-backed coup ousts elected Marxist president. CAMBODIA 1975 Troops, bombing: Gas captured ship, 28 die in copter crash. ANGOLA 1976-92 Command operation: CIA assists South African-backed rebels. IRAN 1980 Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing: Raid to rescue Embassy hostages; 8 Troops: die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned not to get involved in revolution. LIBYA 1981 Naval jets: Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers. EL SALVADOR 1981-92 Command operation, troops: Advisors, over-flights aid anti-rebel war, soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash. NICARAGUA 1981-90 Command operation, naval: CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution. LEBANON 1982-84 Naval, bombing, troops: Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim and Syrian positions. HONDURAS 1983-89 Troops: Maneuvers help build bases near borders. GRENADA 1983-84 Troops, bombing: Invasion four years after revolution. IRAN 1984 Jets: Two Iranian jets shot down over Persian Gulf. LIBYA 1986 Bombing, naval: Air strikes to topple nationalist gov't. BOLIVIA 1986 Troops: Army assists raids on cocaine region. IRAN 1987-88 Naval, bombing: US intervenes on side of Iraq in war. LIBYA 1989 Naval jets: Two Libyan jets shot down. VIRGIN ISLANDS 1989 Troops: St. Croix Black unrest after storm. PHILIPPINES 1989 Jets Air cover provided for government against coup. PANAMA 1989-90 Troops, bombing: Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed. LIBERIA 1990 Troops: Foreigners evacuated during civil war. SAUDI ARABIA 1990-91 Troops, jets: Iraq countered after invading Kuwait; 540,000 Troops: also stationed in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel. IRAQ 1990-? Bombing, troops, naval, blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports, air strikes: 200,000+ killed in invasion of Iraq and Kuwait; no-fly zone over Kurdish north, Shiite south, large-scale destruction of Iraqi military. KUWAIT 1991 Naval, bombing, troops: Kuwait royal family returned to throne. LOS ANGELES 1992 Troops: Army, Marines deployed against anti-police uprising. SOMALIA 1992-94 Troops, naval, bombing: U.S.-led United Nations occupation during civil war; raids against one Mogadishu faction. YUGOSLAVIA 1992-94 Naval: NATO blockade of Serbia and Montenegro. BOSNIA 1993-95 Jets, bombing: No-fly zone patrolled in civil war; downed jets, bombed Serbs. HAITI 1994-96 Troops, naval blockade against military government. Troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup. CROATIA 1995 Bombing Krajina: Serb airfields attacked before Croatian offensive. ZAIRE (CONGO) 1996-97 Troops: Marines at Rwandan Hutu refuge camps, in area where Congo revolution begins. LIBERIA 1997 Troops: Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners. ALBANIA 1997 Troops: Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners. SUDAN 1998 Missiles Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be "terrorist" nerve gas plant. AFGHANISTAN 1998 Missiles Attack on former CIA training camps used by Islamic fundamentalist groups alleged to have attacked embassies. IRAQ 1998-? Bombing, missiles: Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons inspectors allege Iraqi obstructions. YUGOSLAVIA 1999-? Bombing, missiles: Heavy NATO air strikes after Serbia declines to withdraw from Kosovo. YEMEN 2000 Naval: Suicide bomb attack on USS Cole. MACEDONIA 2001 Troops: NATO Troops: shift and partially disarm Albanian rebels. UNITED STATES 2001 Jets, naval: Response to hijacking attacks. AFGHANISTAN 2001 Massive U.S. mobilization to attack Taliban, Bin Laden. War could expand to Iraq, Sudan, and beyond. (The first bombing began on October 7, 2001. Several Afghan cities come under aerial attack. The story continues). Quote
RuMR Posted July 1, 2003 Posted July 1, 2003 (edited) JGowans said: Alpinfox said: I haven't read the whole thread, so maybe someone already mentioned this, but maybe folks around the world hate us because we drop bombs on them? You mean because of all these military interventions? <insert places and dates that need not be repeated here> Yeah...we shoulda stayed outta the biggies, huh? Maybe WW2 woulda worked itself out ok... Edited July 1, 2003 by Off_White Quote
Peter_Puget Posted July 1, 2003 Posted July 1, 2003 JG - Just want to point out that amongst your anti-thinking spew there are some serious factual errors. Now I would suggest that a person quoting from Stupid White Men might not care but I thought I'd point out some facts: US Link Canadian Link Spew on! PP Quote
toptimmy Posted July 1, 2003 Posted July 1, 2003 Wheres fence sitter? Shouldnt he be calling everyone hippies by now? Quote
JayB Posted July 1, 2003 Posted July 1, 2003 JGowans said: We purportedly live in a free nation that embodies the ideals of freedom and democracy, yet here we are being dictated to by an unelected president fuelled by a media horde that is simply not interested in presenting the news. It's called the electoral college. Look into it. Seriously. Didn't they make you learn this stuff before given you that Green Card? Congrats on getting the card - seriously. Glad to have your kilt wearing, haggis eating, ungrateful Scottish Mofo ass in this country. Seriously though various private groups sponsored recounts and Bush came out ahead in virtually every one of the. I think the Miami Herald still has the stuff up on their site if you'd care to look into the matter further. Quote
JGowans Posted July 1, 2003 Author Posted July 1, 2003 Peter_Puget said: JG - Just want to point out that amongst your anti-thinking spew there are some serious factual errors. Now I would suggest that a person quoting from Stupid White Men might not care but I thought I'd point out some facts: US Link Canadian Link Spew on! PP PP, I'm not intending to spew, merely to promote debate. As to the factuality of the numbers I presented, you and I both know that there's a multitude of ways to present the same numbers yet reach different conclusions. Michael Moore gets his data from a number of sources which he cites but I'm not about to repeat since it's fairly exhaustive. Quote
Greg_W Posted July 1, 2003 Posted July 1, 2003 Word up, Jay. And on the war front, how many of those countries would hate us if we DID NOT intervene? You, Mr. Gowans, would have been a citizen of the Greater German Reich if we hadn't stepped in in 1942. Quote
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