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JGowans

Why Do People Hate America?

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erik said:

kiwi it is not americanization....

 

it is the anglo xhristain ethic being taught to people....you know the one, where you tell on people, hate others you do not understand and attempt to force your weakass on them so that you can stand above them with a smirk of dominance....

 

its really simple!

 

 

Actually, I think we can thank the English for originating this one. I disagree in the present, I think there is a certain amount of Export America going on. We should be exporting the illegal aliens instead.

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mattp said:

It looks like an interesting book. Does the review I found

 

here

 

properly characterize its message?

Yes, I'd say that's a fairly accurate summary of the contents.

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JGowans said:

RuMR said:I have 2 questions for you: "What exactly would you change about the US system (of course recognizing that there will always be the inherent problems w/ large beaurocracies) and why?" And my second question is this: "Who else on this entire planet is doing a better job of it?"

 

Good points by you and RobBob. I've lived here most of my adult life, but probably won't ever quite understand the desire by most Americans to nuke other nations as a way to exact revenge. That's neither here nor there though. I do understand the well of emotion.

 

What would I change and why?

- For one, the mass media. Clear Channel communication owns most of the airwaves in this country. This conglomerate is actually run by a few guys from Texas that happen to be good buddies of GW. I'd introduce some real competition into that industry. Currently, it seems that the only source for news is NPR which is quite a sad state of affairs given that so few people bother to listen to that station. Same principles apply to TV. When was the last time we actually saw a news piece about foreign countries that wasn't about us helping them, or bombing them? No, they'd rather talk about the latest Sony camcorder (I saw this yesterday) or talk about two cute little kittens born in Seattle. Where's the news? Fuck the entertainment aspect, and give us the news. Local, national, international, unbiased, objective news where we are free to filter it ourselves.

 

Very good point...I have cable and try to catch BBC's version of the news every evening...its not the best but its definitely different...Your issue is mainly one w/ CORPORATE America, not the government...Do you recall the Clinton scandal? I believe he was literally torn apart by the media much to Europe's amusement...so it does go both ways...

 

- I would reduce the amount of aid we give to Israel. Currently it stands at $4Billion a year. Surely with that level of aid, we hold enough leverage to put an end to the troubles there.

 

I totally agree w/ you here...and i think we need to actually send aid to the palestinians as well...but there is a total hotbed there and just about anything you do is gonna be fucked...so what do you do then?????????? Kinda like Ireland, and i guess the UK establishment is doing miracles there... hahaha.gifrolleyes.gif

 

- I would make an honest and sincere attempt to bridge the gulf between blacks and whites in this country. Britain has just as much of a guilty history as the U.S., yet blacks are much more integrated into society there than here. If it takes raising taxes to give them decent housing and education then so be it.

 

Agree once more w/ you here as well...but you must recognize that things changing is not an overnight timeframe...My dad, for example, thinks affirmative action is horseshit and i've argued w/ him till i'm blue in the face...I will NEVER change his mind...Now i ask you this...what age are most of the elected officials? And how fast are they going to move

 

- I'd implement some very stringent gun laws. Currently, the U.S. experiences some 11,000 gun deaths every year. Canada has about 60.

 

No comment...my family hunts, i have, but don't anymore, so have no need for a gun...

 

- I'd like to see us approach foreign nations with a view to establishing partnerships versus one way highways that allow our corporations to reap their natural resources for a pittance.

 

agree again, but you are talking more about CORPORATE america (w/ help from the government)...Often times, your "foreign governments" are just a brutal regime or worse, even a brutal person...so you really think any equity is really gonna be achieved?????????? Don't think so...

 

- I'd like us to review how we operate within the international sphere of politics. Ratifying the Kyoto treaty, signing the U.N.s Child's Bills of Rights (only Iraq and the U.S. have not signed it), signing the anti-landmine bills (again, only the U.S. and I think Iran have not signed this). I could go on, but the basic point I'm making is that we only sign bills pertaining to free trade and mock every other bill that comes our way regarding human rights, torture, executing children etc.

 

See points about other "foreign governments"...

 

- I could think of a few more things, but let's keep the debate going...

 

 

 

YOu casually neglected to answer my second question...

 

Its so easy to sit back and critique a working process but pretty fricken' hard to actually produce any real improvements...

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Hoo Boy, JG! You're a nothing if not ballsey as a greencard-carrying resident consultant! hahaha.gif

 

Whilst you are clearly a left-leaning so-and-so, I'll agree with you on media, on leveraging aid to Israel, even on gun control. As for private industry pillaging abroad, Hell, we learned that from the UK! And we have tried to close the gulf between races by throwing money at it. Newsflash: It ain't working. Until we solve the problem created by fatherless households, IMO we will continue to have a huge problem with black males jobless and in prison in this country. It is sad, but it is a fact.

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RuMR said:YOu casually neglected to answer my second question...

 

Its so easy to sit back and critique a working process but pretty fricken' hard to actually produce any real improvements...

I didn't mean to ignore your second question. I suppose it depends on what one's priorities are. At any given point in one's life, one's priorities are different. A 25 year old has way different needs than a 65 year old retiree. However, in looking at the big picture, I think a hybrid of capitalism and socialism should be looked at. Sweden has a great social system, and takes a decidedly neutral role in military interventions. They are not without their problems. The UK is the most capitalist-like nation in Europe and one that I think has a lot going for it but for the current government's tendancy to march in step with G.W. (and could soon pay the price for it due to the current gonvernment enquiry into whether they misled the public over the Iraq war). The point I'm making is that you're right...no-one nation is perfect. However, with the vast power that the U.S. has, I think it has a unique opportunity and indeed, responsibility to help shape the world for generations to come in such a way that promotes global partnerships and establishes global guiding principles that are not designed to solely benefit the corporations of this country.

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RobBob said:

Hoo Boy, JG! You're a nothing if not ballsey as a greencard-carrying resident consultant! hahaha.gif

I am left-leaning. However, I don't want to come across as an ungrateful foreigner living here. That's far from the case. I do have a stake and an interest in the welfare of this nation. I care also though about our role in international politics and the influence we have on the rest of the world. I think that we create a lot of our own problems, and while we have the resources and means to solve them, we don't make a sincere effort to solve them because it doesn't always jive with our over-arching mission of economic prosperity.

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JGowans said:

RuMR said:YOu casually neglected to answer my second question...

 

Its so easy to sit back and critique a working process but pretty fricken' hard to actually produce any real improvements...

I didn't mean to ignore your second question. I suppose it depends on what one's priorities are. At any given point in one's life, one's priorities are different. A 25 year old has way different needs than a 65 year old retiree. However, in looking at the big picture, I think a hybrid of capitalism and socialism should be looked at. Sweden has a great social system, and takes a decidedly neutral role in military interventions. They are not without their problems. The UK is the most capitalist-like nation in Europe and one that I think has a lot going for it but for the current government's tendancy to march in step with G.W. (and could soon pay the price for it due to the current gonvernment enquiry into whether they misled the public over the Iraq war). The point I'm making is that you're right...no-one nation is perfect. However, with the vast power that the U.S. has, I think it has a unique opportunity and indeed, responsibility to help shape the world for generations to come in such a way that promotes global partnerships and establishes global guiding principles that are not designed to solely benefit the corporations of this country.

 

Hey....just so you know...I agree w/ you on about 95% of what you are saying in PRINCIPLE, although in practice i think it will not be achieved in my lifetime...

 

As i've said before, we have the best system yet, but it is faaaaaaar from perfect...and probably never will be...

 

Take your guncontrol issue...are you ever gonna be able to convince GregW that he should give up his guns??? my take on that is that they are central to the way he defines his life, correct or not...you, on the other hand, have a polar opposite view...so one of you will not be happy depending on what system is implemented...now scale that phenomenon up to a global size and you see what is left? A COMPLETE CLUSTERFUCK THAT WILL NEVER MAKE EVEN A MAJORITY HAPPY...

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RuMr-

You seem to suggest that there might be someting wrong with Gowan or somebody else criticising the U.S. for its' foreign policy. Is that true? And, in the context of the discussion of why people hate us, do you think our foreign policy has ANYTHING to do with it?

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mattp said:

RuMr-

You seem to suggest that there might be someting wrong with Gowan or somebody else criticising the U.S. for its' foreign policy. Is that true? And, in the context of the discussion of why people hate us, do you think our foreign policy has ANYTHING to do with it?

 

Nope...Please read what i've said...i've said we are flawed, but i just don't think it can be fixed, period. Maybe improved, but not fixed...

 

Foreign policy? WTF is that? How are you gonna deal w/ certain regimes? W/ money? W/ war? W/ what? I believe that a lot of the problems in this world are actually not the fault of the US (many are) but somehow, we take more than the lion's share of the blame and it flat pisses me off...We've fucked a lot of shit up, no doubt...but nobody, and i mean nobody, gives us any credit for anything at all...

 

 

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I haven't read the whole thread, so maybe someone already mentioned this, but maybe folks around the world hate us because we drop bombs on them?

 

 

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yeah, true...usually justified after they blow something up...

 

again...I said i disagreed w/ Iraq

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People hate not being in control. They resent the US's strength with or without their input. "The arrogance of those Americans!"

 

A few years ago we hated (but in many cases, secretly admired) the Japanese and their economy. Now they are a non sequitor. Envy.

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ahhh...i'm bagging out of this discussion...its pointless...

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This might shed some light on our current policies. Taken from "Stupid White Men"

 

We're number one in millionaires

We're number on in billiionaires

We're number one in military spending

We're number one in firearm deaths

We're number one in beef production

We're number one in per capita energy use

We're number one in carbon dioxide emissions (more than Australia, Brazil, Canada, France, India, UK combined)

We're number one in total per capita municipal waste

We're number one in hazardous waste produced (by a factor of 20 times our nearest competitor Germany)

We're number one in oil consupmption

We're number one in natural gas consumption

We're number one in the least amount of tax revenue generated (as a % of GDP)

We're number one in the least amount of federal and state government expenditure (as a % of GDP)

We're number one in budget deficit (as a % of GDP)

We're number one in daily per capita consumption of calories

We're number one in lowest voter turnout

We're number one in number of political parties represented in the lower or single house

We're number one in recorded rapes (by a factor of almost 3 times our nearest competitor, Canada)

We're number one in injuries or deaths from road accidents (almost twice as many as Canada)

We're number one in births to mothers under the age of twenty

We're number one in the number of international human rights treaties not signed

We're number one among countries in the United Nations with a legally constituted government to not ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of a Child

We're number one of known executions of child offenders

We're number one in likelihood of children under 15 to die from gunfire

We're number one in likelihood of children under 15 to commit suicide with a gun

We're number one in lowest 8th-grade math scores

We're number one in becoming the first society in history in which the poorest group in the population are children.

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Yeah...we're just fucked aren't we...I'm going to move to kenya... rolleyes.gif

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RobBob said:

A few years ago we hated (but in many cases, secretly admired) the Japanese and their economy. Now they are a non sequitor. Envy.

 

That was pure jealousy, for sure. Remember that we reestablished their economy and their industrial base after the war. We set up their manufacturing and taught them statistical sampling in quality control. They did what the behemoth Big 3 chose not to: pay attention to quality and build a quality car for less. That's why we were envious.

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Greg_W said:

RobBob said:

A few years ago we hated (but in many cases, secretly admired) the Japanese and their economy. Now they are a non sequitor. Envy.

 

That was pure jealousy, for sure. Remember that we reestablished their economy and their industrial base after the war. We set up their manufacturing and taught them statistical sampling in quality control. They did what the behemoth Big 3 chose not to: pay attention to quality and build a quality car for less. That's why we were envious.

 

But we sure don't get any credit for rebuilding Japan...do we?

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Alpinfox said:

 

I haven't read the whole thread, so maybe someone already mentioned this, but maybe folks around the world hate us because we drop bombs on them?

 

You mean because of all these military interventions?

 

SOUTH DAKOTA

1890 (-?)

Troops: 300 Lakota Indians massacred at Wounded Knee.

 

ARGENTINA

1890

Troops: Buenos Aires interests protected.

 

CHILE

1891

Troops: Marines clash with nationalist rebels.

 

HAITI

1891

Troops: Black workers revolt on U.S.-claimed Navassa Island defeated.

 

IDAHO

1892

Troops: Army suppresses silver miners' strike.

 

HAWAII

1893 (-?)

Naval, troops: Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed.

 

CHICAGO

1894

Troops: Breaking of rail strike, 34 killed

 

NICARAGUA

1894

Troops: Month-long occupation of Bluefields.

 

CHINA

1894-95

Naval, troops: Marines land in Sino-Jap War.

 

KOREA

1894-96

Troops: Marines kept in Seoul during war.

 

PANAMA

1895

Troops, naval: Marines land in Colombian province.

 

NICARAGUA

1896

Troops: Marines land in port of Corinto.

 

CHINA

1898-1900

Troops, boxer. Rebellion fought by foreign armies.

 

PHILIPPINES

1898-1910(-?)

Naval, troops: Seized from Spain, killed 600,000 Filipinos.

 

CUBA

1898-1902(-?)

Naval, troops: Seized from Spain, still hold Navy base.

 

PUERTO RICO

1898(-?)

Naval, troops: Seized from Spain, occupation

continues.

 

GUAM

1898(-?)

Naval, troops: Seized from Spain, still used as base.

 

MINNESOTA

1898(-?)

Troops: Army battles Chippewa at Leech Lake.

 

NICARAGUA

1898

Troops: Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur.

 

SAMOA

1899(-?)

Troops: Battle over succession to throne.

 

NICARAGUA

1899

Troops: Marines land at port of Bluefields.

 

IDAHO

1899-1901

Troops: Army occupies Coeur d'Alene mining region.

 

OKLAHOMA

1901

Troops: Army battles Creek Indian revolt.

 

PANAMA

1901-14

Naval, troops: Broke off from Colombia 1903, annexed Canal Zone 1914-99.

 

HONDURAS

1903

Troops: Marines intervene in revolution.

 

DOMINICAN REP.

1903-04

Troops: U.S. interests protected in Revolution.

 

KOREA

1904-05

Troops: Marines land in Russo-Japanese War.

 

CUBA

1906-09

Troops: Marines land in democratic election.

 

NICARAGUA

1907

Troops: "Dollar Diplomacy" protectorate set up.

 

HONDURAS

1907

Troops: Marines land during war with Nicaragua.

 

PANAMA

1908

Troops: Marines intervene in election contest.

 

NICARAGUA

1910

Troops: Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto.

 

HONDURAS

1911

Troops: U.S. interests protected in civil war.

 

CHINA

1911-41

Naval, troops: Continuous occupation with flare-ups.

 

CUBA

1912

Troops: U.S. interests protected in Havana.

 

PANAMA

19l2

Troops: Marines land during heated election.

 

HONDURAS

19l2

Troops: Marines protect U.S. economic interests.

 

NICARAGUA

1912-33

Troops, bombing: 20-year occupation, fought guerrillas.

 

MEXICO

19l3

Naval: Americans evacuated during revolution.

 

DOMINICAN REPUBLIC

1914

Naval: Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo.

 

COLORADO

1914

Troops: Breaking of miners' strike by Army.

 

MEXICO

1914-18

Naval, troops: Series of interventions against nationalists.

 

HAITI

1914-34

Troops, bombing: 19-year occupation after revolts.

 

DOMINICAN REPUBLIC

1916-24

Troops: 8-year Marine occupation.

 

CUBA

1917-33

Troops: Military occupation, economic protectorate.

 

WORLD WAR I

19l7-18

Naval, troops: Ships sunk, fought Germany

 

RUSSIA

1918-22

Naval, troops: Five landings to fight Bolsheviks.

 

PANAMA

1918-20

Troops: "Police duty" during unrest after elections.

 

YUGOSLAVIA

1919

Troops: Marines intervene for Italy against Serbs in Dalmatia.

 

HONDURAS

1919

Troops: Marines land during election campaign.

 

GUATEMALA

1920

Troops: 2-week intervention against unionists.

 

WEST VIRGINIA

1920-21

Troops, bombing: Army intervenes against mineworkers.

 

TURKEY

1922

Troops: Fought nationalists in Smyrna (Izmir).

 

CHINA

1922-27

Naval, troops: Deployment during nationalist revolt.

 

HONDURAS

1924-25

Troops: Landed twice during election strife.

 

PANAMA

1925

Troops: Marines suppress general strike.

 

CHINA

1927-34

Troops: Marines stationed throughout the country.

 

EL SALVADOR

1932

Naval: Warships sent during Farabundo Marti revolt.

 

WASHINGTON DC

1932

Troops: Army stops WWI vet bonus protest.

 

WORLD WAR II

1941-45

Naval, troops, bombing, nuclear: Fought Axis for 3 years; 1st nuclear war.

 

DETROIT

1943

Troops: Army puts down Black rebellion.

 

IRAN

1946

Nuclear threat: Soviet Troops: told to leave north (Iranian Azerbaijan).

 

YUGOSLAVIA

1946

Naval: Response to shooting-down of U.S. plane.

 

URUGUAY

1947

Nuclear threat: Bombers deployed as show of strength.

 

GREECE

1947-49

Command operation: U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war.

 

CHINA

1948-49

Troops: Marines evacuate Americans before Communist victory.

 

GERMANY

1948

Nuclear threat: Atomic-capable bombers guard Berlin Airlift.

 

PHILIPPINES

1948-54

Command operation: CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion.

 

PUERTO RICO

1950

Command operation: Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce.

 

KOREA

1950-53

Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats: U.S.& South Korea fight China & North Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in 1950, & vs. China in 1953. Still have bases.

 

IRAN

1953

Command operation: CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah.

 

VIETNAM

1954

Nuclear threat: Bombs offered to French to use against siege.

 

GUATEMALA

1954

Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat: CIA directs exile invasion after new government nationalizes U.S. company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua.

 

EGYPT

1956

Nuclear threat, troops: Soviets told to keep out of Suez crisis; Marines evacuate foreigners

 

LEBANON

1958

Troops, naval: Marine occupation against rebels.

 

IRAQ

1958

Nuclear threat: Iraq warned against invading Kuwait.

 

CHINA

1958

Nuclear threat: China told not to move on Taiwan isles.

 

PANAMA

1958

Troops: Flag protests erupt into confrontation.

 

VIETNAM

1960-75

Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats: Fought South Vietnam revolt & North Vietnam; 1-2 million killed in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in 1968 and 1969.

 

CUBA

1961

Command operation: CIA-directed exile invasion fails.

 

GERMANY

1961

Nuclear threat: Alert during Berlin Wall crisis.

 

CUBA

1962

Nuclear threat: Naval blockade during missile crisis; near-war with USSR.

 

LAOS

1962

Command operation: Military buildup during guerrilla war.

 

PANAMA

1964

Troops: Panamanians shot for urging canal's return.

 

INDONESIA

1965

Command operation: Million killed in CIA-assisted army coup.

 

DOMINICAN REPUBLIC

1965-66

Troops, bombing: Marines land during election campaign.

 

GUATEMALA

1966-67

Command operation: Green Berets intervene against rebels.

 

DETROIT

1967

Troops: Army battles Blacks, 43 killed.

 

UNITED STATES

1968

Troops: After civil rights activist King is shot; over 21,000 soldiers in cities.

 

CAMBODIA

1969-75

Bombing, troops, naval: Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos.

 

OMAN

1970

Command operation: U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion.

 

LAOS

1971-73

Command operation, bombing: U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside.

 

SOUTH DAKOTA

1973

Command operation: Army directs Wounded Knee siege of Lakotas.

 

MIDEAST

1973

Nuclear threat: World-wide alert during Mideast War.

 

CHILE

1973

Command operation: CIA-backed coup ousts elected Marxist president.

 

CAMBODIA

1975

Troops, bombing: Gas captured ship, 28 die in copter crash.

 

ANGOLA

1976-92

Command operation: CIA assists South African-backed rebels.

 

IRAN

1980

Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing: Raid to rescue Embassy hostages; 8 Troops: die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned not to get involved in revolution.

 

LIBYA

1981

Naval jets: Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers.

 

EL SALVADOR

1981-92

Command operation, troops: Advisors, over-flights aid anti-rebel war, soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash.

 

NICARAGUA

1981-90

Command operation, naval: CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution.

 

LEBANON

1982-84

Naval, bombing, troops: Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim and Syrian positions.

 

HONDURAS

1983-89

Troops: Maneuvers help build bases near borders.

 

GRENADA

1983-84

Troops, bombing: Invasion four years after revolution.

 

IRAN

1984

Jets: Two Iranian jets shot down over Persian Gulf.

 

LIBYA

1986

Bombing, naval: Air strikes to topple nationalist gov't.

 

BOLIVIA

1986

Troops: Army assists raids on cocaine region.

 

IRAN

1987-88

Naval, bombing: US intervenes on side of Iraq in war.

 

LIBYA

1989

Naval jets: Two Libyan jets shot down.

 

VIRGIN ISLANDS

1989

Troops: St. Croix Black unrest after storm.

 

PHILIPPINES

1989

Jets Air cover provided for government against coup.

 

PANAMA

1989-90

Troops, bombing: Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed.

 

LIBERIA

1990

Troops: Foreigners evacuated during civil war.

 

SAUDI ARABIA

1990-91

Troops, jets: Iraq countered after invading Kuwait; 540,000 Troops: also stationed in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel.

 

IRAQ

1990-?

Bombing, troops, naval, blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports, air strikes: 200,000+ killed in invasion of Iraq and Kuwait; no-fly zone over Kurdish north, Shiite south, large-scale destruction of Iraqi military.

 

KUWAIT

1991

Naval, bombing, troops: Kuwait royal family returned to throne.

 

LOS ANGELES

1992

Troops: Army, Marines deployed against anti-police uprising.

 

SOMALIA

1992-94

Troops, naval, bombing: U.S.-led United Nations occupation during civil war; raids against one Mogadishu faction.

 

YUGOSLAVIA

1992-94

Naval: NATO blockade of Serbia and Montenegro.

 

BOSNIA

1993-95

Jets, bombing: No-fly zone patrolled in civil war; downed jets, bombed Serbs.

 

HAITI

1994-96

Troops, naval blockade against military government. Troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup.

 

CROATIA

1995

Bombing Krajina: Serb airfields attacked before Croatian offensive.

 

ZAIRE (CONGO)

1996-97

Troops: Marines at Rwandan Hutu refuge camps, in area where Congo revolution begins.

 

LIBERIA

1997

Troops: Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.

 

ALBANIA

1997

Troops: Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.

 

SUDAN

1998

Missiles Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be "terrorist" nerve gas plant.

 

AFGHANISTAN

1998

Missiles Attack on former CIA training camps used by Islamic fundamentalist groups alleged to have attacked embassies.

 

IRAQ

1998-?

Bombing, missiles: Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons inspectors allege Iraqi obstructions.

 

YUGOSLAVIA

1999-?

Bombing, missiles: Heavy NATO air strikes after Serbia declines to withdraw from Kosovo.

 

YEMEN

2000

Naval: Suicide bomb attack on USS Cole.

 

MACEDONIA

2001

Troops: NATO Troops: shift and partially disarm Albanian rebels.

 

UNITED STATES

2001

Jets, naval: Response to hijacking attacks.

 

AFGHANISTAN

2001

Massive U.S. mobilization to attack Taliban, Bin Laden. War could expand to Iraq, Sudan, and beyond. (The first bombing began on October 7, 2001. Several Afghan cities come under aerial attack. The story continues).

 

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JGowans said:

Alpinfox said:

 

I haven't read the whole thread, so maybe someone already mentioned this, but maybe folks around the world hate us because we drop bombs on them?

 

You mean because of all these military interventions?

 

<insert places and dates that need not be repeated here>

 

Yeah...we shoulda stayed outta the biggies, huh? Maybe WW2 woulda worked itself out ok...

 

 

Edited by Off_White

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JG -

 

Just want to point out that amongst your anti-thinking spew there are some serious factual errors. Now I would suggest that a person quoting from Stupid White Men might not care but I thought I'd point out some facts:

 

US Link

 

Canadian Link

 

Spew on!

 

PP bigdrink.gif

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JGowans said:

We purportedly live in a free nation that embodies the ideals of freedom and democracy, yet here we are being dictated to by an unelected president fuelled by a media horde that is simply not interested in presenting the news.

 

It's called the electoral college. Look into it. Seriously. Didn't they make you learn this stuff before given you that Green Card? hahaha.gif Congrats on getting the card - seriously. Glad to have your kilt wearing, haggis eating, ungrateful Scottish Mofo ass in this country.

 

Seriously though various private groups sponsored recounts and Bush came out ahead in virtually every one of the. I think the Miami Herald still has the stuff up on their site if you'd care to look into the matter further.

 

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Peter_Puget said:

JG -

 

Just want to point out that amongst your anti-thinking spew there are some serious factual errors. Now I would suggest that a person quoting from Stupid White Men might not care but I thought I'd point out some facts:

 

US Link

 

Canadian Link

 

Spew on!

 

PP bigdrink.gif

 

PP, I'm not intending to spew, merely to promote debate. As to the factuality of the numbers I presented, you and I both know that there's a multitude of ways to present the same numbers yet reach different conclusions. Michael Moore gets his data from a number of sources which he cites but I'm not about to repeat since it's fairly exhaustive.

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Word up, Jay. And on the war front, how many of those countries would hate us if we DID NOT intervene? You, Mr. Gowans, would have been a citizen of the Greater German Reich if we hadn't stepped in in 1942.

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