T.R.-ing ice

[Lambone]

Everybody all ways trash talks people who top-rope ice as if it is a disgracefull act that the persuers should be ashamed of. I think that's bullshit...

Of course, the right of way should be given to folks who wish to lead the first pitch of a multi-pitch ice climb, thus providing them access to the upper pitches.

Aside from that I think T.R.-ing Ice at any grade is a blast. It allows you to try all kinds of stuff that you may never have the balls to try on lead (i.e. going leashless, hard unprotectable lines, dynamic movement, and insecure body positions, etc.) All this without the fear of getting broken.

I am also all for treading lightly on Ice, inorder to preserve it for the next party. When your on T.R. you can afford to swing lightly and hook alot more. When I'm on lead I tend to want to bash a belay in with each swing. So maybe toproping is better for high traffic areas like Marble Canyon.

Anyway I know there are people out there who think top-roping Ice is sacreligious. Whats your take on it? Spray makes the stress go away...

[Cpt.Caveman]

I say if someone steps up to lead it then he or she has the right of way. Everyone has toproped before.. There are good and bad places and times for it. If you cannot figure out when and where then buy a brain or win it in your next box of Cheerios. Nuf said.

[Dru]

[self righteous] Instead of Tring something you cant lead you should lead something you can [/self righteous].

I find TRing ice does nothing much for lead ability in that the lead is all about having the stamina to put in screws while on TR it is much more like you are soloing and you never have to hunt to find ice good enough for screws. Also TRing tends to see many more climbers on the same chunk of ice like at Marble you see "8 dogs on 1 leash" whereas you see parties of 2 or 3 at most on lead routes. So the bashing does occur.Also the issue of TRing on two long ropes "bell ringer style"at Marble means if someone pitches off near the bottom they usually deck anyways!! Not to mention the swarming crowds are at risk of getting smacked by ice chunks.

I haven't strictly TRed ice in 5 years now* so I can preach from my little corner of abstinence.

* I did put a rope down the dihedral last year to recover gear after getting scared when trying to finish and having a root I was hooking break off and nearly send me whipping. And then TRed through that section once rope was down. but i tried to lead it first...and only 2 of us climbed it... so,

[philfort]

I don't think there's anything wrong with TR'ing ice. How the hell else are you supposed to learn? Of course, like caveman said, if you're at a place where there's other people, and someone wants to lead it, they should get priority.

[erik]

tr'ing in general. i dont do it. follow routes yes. though i am not inncoent of puttin a rope up.

but for the most part i would agree with drul, tr'ing only can help you in limited applications, like minor techniques and the what not. if you are constantly trying routes well above your ability and just struggle to do it, where do you get practice??? are you practicing getting frustrated or failing??? those two things seem counterproductive to a healthy learning enviroment.

you dont tr wi2 or 3 do you?? so if you wanted to get good at tr'ing or follwing you might was well just do that, but if you want to get good at leading then get on the sharp end!!

to learn and to train for climbing requires climbing. miles and miles of vertical feet is what it takes to be a 'good' climber.

[Lambone]

Y'all have a point there. I have allways enjoyed testing the limit of my placements while on top-rope. It helps me find the minimum amount of purchase that I can get by with before coming off. Practicing this has helped me learn to lead and follow faster. But you wouldn't find me using the weakest placement possible while soloing or leading...

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: Lambone ]

[Cpt.Caveman]

quote:

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Originally posted by erik:

tr'ing in general. i dont do it. follow routes yes.

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Umm you sure you dont wanna strike that remark

[Heinouscling]

Whats all this bullshit about TRing? I don't want to hear any of this ethics bullshit! It's my body that ends up getting broken, god damn it! Ok, heres the skinny. Nobody was even going near Deeping wall. For obvious reasons, you fucks! You're in the death zone before you can get any reasonable protection in. So my partner and I set up a TR and practiced vertical, thin ice moves. If somebody walked up, who had the balls to lead the thing, by all means, we would pull our rope and say "Have fun" and then stick around to help haul the fucker's broken carcus to the coroner's pickup. As for Dru's comment on TRing? Ah, come on, Dru, you little pink boy wanker. Ice that I used to quake on, feels like a walk in the park since I've started TRing nasty shit. Sort of like swinging a light bat after swinging a heavy one. And why would you want to bash ice while on TR? I'm usually as delicate as can be, to find out what me and my tools are capable of. While on TR is when I can totally concentrate on technique and style. BE NICE TO THE ICE!! And rope stretch? My partner and I discussed this and we just concentrated on yarding up on that rope using some muscle. You know Dru, those little, flabby things that dangle from your arm bones. Hey, falling on TR is nothing compared to decking on the hard ice below from a free fall.

-Heinous

[Lambone]

Hey man nobody was ripping on you here, but I think we've got the same opinion...

[erik]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman:

Umm you sure you dont wanna strike that remark

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please read all the context caveman, and you will get it. cya

[Cpt.Caveman]

quote:

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Originally posted by erik:

please read all the context caveman, and you will get it. cya

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Yeah ok you so burly man. Hehehehhe

Dru wrote:"If the rope is above you you aren't really climbing - you are just a dog on a leash" -Seamus O'Hooligan.

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: Cpt.Caveman ]

[Rafael_H]

.To Dru:More than placing pro leading ice is a test for the head (e.g. why waste time and energy placing a crappy screw that won't hold) where runouts are big. This makes TR-ing even more dangerous for those who want to lead. I think (and do) that TR-ing ice is best to learn new (never climbed before) ice conditions. For example I onsighted a 5+ ice I could easily read and backed off and then TR-ed another WI5 in totally different shape I never climbed before. One needs to learn how different ice holds, how to get a stick, etc. That's once. After that it's pure head (or... ). It is fine to strive for 100% safe climbing, just pick an appropriate tag though (not arrogant, that's just the way it is).

BTW, I found that those large cauliflowers with very long - 5-6+ feet - thin stem-icicles just need to be broken away to get to the more consolidated ice below. One can hook and stand on the top of a cauliflower only after getting to it. That's what I learned by tr-ing.

To Cavey:Cheerios brains are OK, but nuts get too sticky...

[Heinouscling]

quote:

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Originally posted by Rafael H:

.

To Dru:

BTW, I found that those large cauliflowers with very long - 5-6+ feet - thin stem-icicles just need to be broken away to get to the more consolidated ice below. One can hook and stand on the top of a cauliflower only after getting to it. That's what I learned by tr-ing.

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Waterfall ice takes much longer to fill in oncethe initial icicles have been broken.

[Dru]

if it wasn't for the constant TRing deeping wall might form up fat enough to be led. If you tred it you are part of the problem not part of the solution.

now im going to powell river to pay homage to big walls! 420 out of here!

[Lambone]

Dru,Whatever, Deeping is a wide flow, not a fragile chandeliered pillar or something...don't you think there is a difference? Plus the warm ice up there is bonded to the rock really nicely. I see where you are coming from, but I don't think it applies on that route.

Anyway, Deeping wall has been led. Albeit by crazy mother fuckers.

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: Lambone ]

[Cpt.Caveman]

How about this?

Next time I am tring just come over and talk some smack to me about how much of a wimp I am. Then we'll see what happens... See if your internet personalities are as tough in person.

BTW I did not tr deeping wall anyway.

[Lambone]

Who are you refering to dude?

[Cpt.Caveman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Lambone:

Who are you refering to dude?

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Not you.

[Rafael_H]

quote:

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Originally posted by Lambone:

Who are you refering to dude?

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Who are you refering to dude?

[Heinouscling]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman:

Not you.

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Can't be me because I was the one doing the TRing. Besides, I admit, my real personality is wimpish compared to my internet personality. Hmm, I may not be alone in that respect. In reality, I'm actually a nice dude.

Now, FUCK OFF ALL OF YOU!!!!!!!!

-Heinous

[Cpt.Caveman]

I will TR lead and climb ice or rock or dirt. I will normally in 99% of situations let people lead or climb past me if they are faster or I am leading.

I dont get what is so hard about that

You cheeseburger eaters like me know it is true too

Yes I climb with ropeguns a bit and yes I do my share of leading too. Yes I spray too. Somehow I believe there is more talk than walk in some of the above statements giving the thumbs down to tring

[Cpt.Caveman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Heinouscling:

Can't be me because I was the one doing the TRing. Besides, I admit, my real personality is wimpish compared to my internet personality. Hmm, I may not be alone in that respect. In reality, I'm actually a nice dude.

Now, FUCK OFF ALL OF YOU!!!!!!!!

-Heinous

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It's more of a general dare.

[Heinouscling]

quote:

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Originally posted by Rafael H:

Who are you refering to dude?

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Am I the dude being referred to? WHO IS THE DUDE IN QUESTION? Would the real dude please stand up.

[Cpt.Caveman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Heinouscling:

Am I the dude being referred to? WHO IS THE DUDE IN QUESTION? Would the real dude please stand up.

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Clingon,

I dont think anyone was referring to you but that is my look on things here.

Spray on Clingon!

[max]

Part I: I'll pose a similar question with an obvious answer: Should someone not ski a sweet powder line unless they're going to make awesome turns? The answer is no, it's any bodies line to ski. Myself, I ski like an ostrich so I often offer sweet lines to my more proficient partners. And I think this is how it goes with ice. If you want to not tr for the good of the community, good for you. If you want to tr 'cause you're hankerin' for some ice, your choice. It's not something that can be mandated.

Part 2: I bet that if this idea of "don't tr, it ruins it for others" was started or even endorsed by, say, the Mountaineers, all the "hardcores" out there would be telling them "blow off, I'll do what I please". But since the idea started (in my opinion) "inside the circle", people are jumping on the bandwagon to be one of the "in crowd"