Tax Cut

[Fairweather]

I am 100% Republican. I believe the first tax cut was needed to stimulate a faltering economy. I kept my $600 rebate and spent it. I am certain that in spending it, albeit frivolously, I helped provide some store clerk, night stocker, longshoreman, a little more job security. I dont care if some rich guy got a bigger cut than I did. He probably spent his too thereby benefiting us all, if indirectly. Regardless, I'm sure he did not stuff the cash into his mattress or bury it in coffee cans in his back yard. (What's up with all the "class envy" JoshK?)

 

However, as one who supported the war in Iraq, I now feel compelled to continue paying my federal taxes at the level I currently do. I do not believe a federal tax cut will provide any more stimulation to our national economy than say....a drop in gasoline prices. If I receive a "rebate" check again, then yes, I will send it back to the fed's to dispense as my elected representatives see fit. ( Unfortunately mine are Democrats, so mine will probably attempt to attach every left-wing rider known to man ...oh well)

 

Now state, local taxes are another matter.....

 

 

[JoshK]

Class envy? huh? Where do you get that from this. I have no problem admitting that I'm most likely upper middle class. I have no problem buying what I please, but it doesn't mean I'm gonna be a rich prick and vote for tax cuts that benifit me (and even richer folks even more) and fuck over the majority.

 

I'd love it if we could all pay less, but shrub's ideas on how to run the economy and tax system are idiotic at best.

[Fairweather]

I believe it was your $40k car driver who saved $1000 analogy. What right did our state have to that money in the first place? Reminds me of the county bitch that knocked on my door last year demanding $$$ because her records showed (incorrectly) that I had an "unlicenced" dog. And aren't we talking about a federal tax cut?

 

Who is "schrub"?

[JoshK]

Fairweather said:

I believe it was your $40k car driver who saved $1000 analogy. What right did our state have to that money in the first place? Reminds me of the county bitch that knocked on my door last year demanding $$$ because her records showed (incorrectly) that I had an "unlicenced" dog. And aren't we talking about a federal tax cut?

 

Who is "schrub"?

 

The state had a right to that money because we live in a country where we pay TAXES! get fucking over it. You need to pay taxes to get services. Now it's impossible to get anything done in this state since all the morons out there voted to take any taxation authority away from the legislature.

 

Shrub is the character you voted for.

[Fairweather]

His name is George W Bush. He was duly elected under the constitutional/electoral process. He is your president. Get over it.

 

[rbw1966]

Fairweather said:

His name is George W Bush. He was duly elected under the constitutional/electoral process. He is your president. Get over it.

 

 

He was? Why was the Supreme Court involved then?

[spew]

Whoa!!! I just got home from work. The point I was trying to make is we all need to let our politicians know we don't mind paying our fair share.

Wealthy people getting enormous tax breaks is not our fair share.

As climbers we need to share public lands and open space and unite with other user groups and stop this pay to play.

The great outdoors was ment to be enjoyed by the poor as well as the rich.

Be informed, think about the big picture before you vote.

 

[JoshK]

I said he was the guy you voted for, asswipe, is that not so? Where did I claim he wasn't my president? I didn't vote for the jackass, that's for damn sure, but I unfortunately have to live with him, as does the rest of the world.

[Fairweather]

spew said:

Whoa!!! I just got home from work. The point I was trying to make is we all need to let our politicians know we don't mind paying our fair share.

Wealthy people getting enormous tax breaks is not our fair share.

As climbers we need to share public lands and open space and unite with other user groups and stop this pay to play.

The great outdoors was ment to be enjoyed by the poor as well as the rich.

Be informed, think about the big picture before you vote.

 

Does this unity mean including motorized user groups too?

[E-rock]

No way!

[Fairweather]

 

Be informed, think about the big picture before you vote.

 

Spew,

Do you recall which president was in office when the poor were first kicked out of our public lands? I did vote on this issue....in 2000....and he's gone now. (unfortunately, the fees are not!)

[JoshK]

Fairweather said:

 

Be informed, think about the big picture before you vote.

 

Spew,

Do you recall which president was in office when the poor were first kicked out of our public lands? I did vote on this issue....in 2000....and he's gone now. (unfortunately, the fees are not!)

 

Yes, clearly the republicans are better for conservation and roadless areas than the dems were.

 

I do agree with the fees comment tho. I still fail to see why I should pay to have my forests destroyed.

[AlpineK]

Mtn Goat you are a total moron. You sit there in your fancy ass house in Sammamish and talk about how we shouldn't have to pay taxes.

 

Do you have any idea how much money various government agencies spent on roads and sewers* and water so you can live in your suburban hellhole and commute to your job in Seattle.

 

*Actually you may not pay for sewers since you started posting on CC.com. You probably had the plumber rig a line straight from your toilet to your computer, and all your shit ends up here.

[JoshK]

AlpineK said:

*Actually you may not pay for sewers since you started posting on CC.com. You probably had the plumber rig a line straight from your toilet to your computer, and all your shit ends up here.

 

[iain]

now that's some serious spray right there

[Off_White]

And with a link to the "pooping off a ledge" thread and the "spray" tale therein, the circle would be complete.

[Paul_detrick]

you guys crack me up.

[MtnGoat]

"please tell me what role the governemnt *should* have?"

 

Maintaining a structure of criminal law to deal with violence, theft, and fraud, civil law to enable contracts to be stable and enforceable, and defending the nation so the above can be applied.

[JoshK]

I think AlpineK said it best: "Mtn Goat you are a total moron"

 

In an attempt to be as levelheaded as possible, however, I'll say the same thing I did in the other thread:

 

MtnGoat, you refuse to carry on any sort of converstaion based in reality. Thanks for the witty banter, but I'm done wasting my time. Take care.

Edited April 16, 2003 by JoshK

[MtnGoat]

"Hey buddy, ever hear of the tragedy of the commons? Well there you have it. "

 

You are right. When people use resources they don't pay for, or can use resources someone *else* pays for, a huge mess ensues. That's why those who use need to be those who pay. Eliminating subsidies in resource extraction, usage, public usage of resources such as schools, so this actually occurs makes sure people's action don't occur in this vacuum.

 

 

"we do what's in our own immediate self-interest and lose out on the opportunity for common gain."

 

What about people who realize their self interest involves common gain and also that their self interest must involve their action in service of common gain? Don't you order your actions in such a way? I do. That we disagree on how common gain works, or what it means, doesn't mean no one pays attention to it.

 

"I don't personally give the government an extra $500 every year, because I know it won't do any good unless everyone else does it as well. "

 

You mean them having $500 bucks more isn't $500 bucks more to help someone with? If you don't want to send it to govt, why not send it to a charity where you *can* direct it where you want and you know it will be used for what you want?

 

"How the hell is that fiscally responsible? I call that fiscally fucked up."

 

I agree. The spending increases are not a good idea. Cut the taxes and limit spending.

 

 

[MtnGoat]

http://www.icta.org/projects/trans/rlprexsm.htm

 

They make a lot of good points. I have no problem with not subsidizing petroleum industry, where such elimination of subsidy is *not* effected by adding someone elses calculation of market costs in taxes.

 

External costs that reflect back by market processes such as insurance, both car and health, due to accidents and other things , will naturally accrue to the individuals involved. Anyplace a cost is directly market attributable to vehicle use, I have no problem with removing subsidies.

 

When you move into "social" costs, where this idea becomes more subjective and dependent on political philosophy/theology, the "costs" become a matter of views and not ones calculable by objective means, those have no place in the costing process IMO.

 

The short version: remove oil production subsidies, remove oil production penalties too (taxes), remove road building subsidies, formulate fuel taxes to reflect building the roads and remediation works, make sure car and health insurances also reflect actual, provable market costs, and then let the system, prices, and choices float where consumers direct it.

[MtnGoat]

"Why was the Supreme Court involved then?"

 

Because the Florida Supreme court did not follow their constitutional mandate to give a thumbs up or down on laws, not change or create them. Their option on election law is yes or no, valid or invalid... not deciding upon a standard and a timeframe. That's what the legislature does.

[MtnGoat]

"MtnGoat, you refuse to carry on any sort of converstaion based in reality."

 

I agree the reality of expecting you to choose to do what you say you support, without pointing at everyone around you and saying they have to do it too or you won't, is something that presents a difficulty. How your claim you value something you won't do by choice, represents you actually valuing it with your real and actual action, is a common problem with liberals of all stripes. Somehow your values only apply when everybody else does what you want.

[Rainierwon]

Blah .

[JoshK]

MtnGoat, do you realize practically everybody, liberal, conservative and in between has stopped listening to you?

 

Take care!