Jim Posted April 10, 2003 Posted April 10, 2003 Have you read the book I cited? No, of course not so rather than dispute the cited facts let's go to poison the well logic. This could go on all day, but rather than me listing sources you could read, why not try and do a little digging? Citation: Zwick, Jim, ed. Anti-Imperialism in the United States, 1898-1935. Or "Instances of Use of United States Forces Abroad, 1798-1993" by Ellen C. Collier of the Library of Congress Congressional Research Service Quote
Peter_Puget Posted April 10, 2003 Posted April 10, 2003 Jim Quote: Have you read the book I cited? No, of course not so rather than dispute the cited facts let's go to poison the well logic. Haven’t read it. Don’t plan to. I would ask if in your research you actually check the primary source documents yourself? I find such checking beyond my means. How do you know when you are being lied to? One way is to check out the credibility of the author. Someone who denies such well documented events is no different from someone who claims Dachau was a benign medical facility. You may say I am poisoning the well; I say the water isn’t worth drinking in the first place. Here are some pics for those interested. I chose not to post any of them directly to this thread. Photo Link - Some not pretty. PP NB - Citation: Zwick, Jim, ed. Anti-Imperialism in the United States, 1898-1935. How does this citation relate to Saddam? Just a question. How does yoru second citation support your assertion about the CIA and Saddam? Link An assertion I haven't disputed by the way. Quote
Off_White Posted April 10, 2003 Posted April 10, 2003 Now I'm totally lost Peter. What do gross photos of dead ethnic Albanians in Kosovo have to do with CIA action/non-action with regards to Saddam Hussein? I don't know about the original rise to power of Saddam Hussein, but it is totally undeniable that he was supported, supplied, and encouraged by the US prior to Gulf War I. We even gave him an implicit green light on invading Kuwait. As April Glaspie said in a meeting with Saddam Hussein on April 25th, 1990 (8 days before the Kuwait invasion) "We have no opinion on your Arab-Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960's that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America." Please refute if you can Peter, or admit that we've had our hand up that puppet's butt in the past. Quote
Jim Posted April 10, 2003 Posted April 10, 2003 That's not a logical arument, that's putting on blinders. And comparing the assertion that the CIA helped Saddam gain power with some who declare the Holocaust didn't happen is taking the low road. Here's some primary documents and another book. In addition if you go to the library and take a look at Chompsky's "Year 501" it is referenced in detail with primary sources. Also, just do a Google for news articles. It's not hard to find some facts. If you have some good sources that say this is all horseshit then we can talk about that. Otherwise it just looks like you don't want to belive what you hear. Details available at Paperless Archives's website: http://www.paperlessarchives.com/iraq.html This set includes 2,165 pages of CIA, State Department, and Congressional research documents covering Iraq and Saddam Hussein. These original source documents give an important historical perspective to the relationship between the United States and Iraq. Andrew and Patrick Cockburn, Out of the Ashes, The Resurrection of Saddam Hussein, 2000 Quote
Peter_Puget Posted April 10, 2003 Posted April 10, 2003 OW - Jim suggested a book by Blum. Blum denies that there was genocide in Kosovo. I pointed that out and claimed that Blum was a kook. Jim suggested I was out to poision the well of logic. I replied that such denials of fact logically lead one to wonder about the credibility of an author's work. The issue at hand was specfically CIA putting Saddam in power. By the way I wasn't disputing this claim. I am however calling Blum a kook and believe that those reading his works should know more about him. The Gulf War is not an issue here. PP By the way I am so dense that I just realized what your intitaials stood for! Quote
Off_White Posted April 10, 2003 Posted April 10, 2003 Peter_Puget said: By the way I am so dense that I just realized what your intitaials stood for! Do you mean the simple response to pain, or the pain earned by struggle with the uncooperative beastly sizes? Truth be told, it there wasn't an almost endless vein of jokes to mine the name would not persist. Quote
Peter_Puget Posted April 10, 2003 Posted April 10, 2003 OW the latter! Jim - Jim Quote: That's not a logical arument, that's putting on blinders. And comparing the assertion that the CIA helped Saddam gain power with some who declare the Holocaust didn't happen is taking the low road. Here's some primary documents and another book. In addition if you go to the library and take a look at Chompsky's "Year 501" it is referenced in detail with primary sources. Also, just do a Google for news articles. It's not hard to find some facts. If you have some good sources that say this is all horseshit then we can talk about that. Otherwise it just looks like you don't want to belive what you hear. First to clarify. I never did this: “compar[ed] the assertion that the CIA helped Saddam gain power with some who declare the Holocaust didn't happen is taking the low road. “ What I did say was that Blum by denying a genocide took place in Kosovo is no different that if he was denying the Holocaust. Second – And for the umpteenth time I never stated a position on the CIAs role in Saddam taking power. Please show me where I did. Third – Please answer my questions about your two references that I made two posts ago. PP Quote
Jim Posted April 10, 2003 Posted April 10, 2003 Peter - I think your earlier reply was that I lost all credibility - I would encourage you do some reading - but I also noticed that you're not disputing the Saddam/CIA connection(?) Quote
Off_White Posted April 10, 2003 Posted April 10, 2003 Cpt.Caveman said: Take a fuckin ticket. I'd be happy to smash your faces in if you ever showed. It's obvious you're both scrawny ass pussies. Like most climbers I know. The last time you made physical threats in Spray I edited them out. That's strike one. This is strike two. This shit is not acceptable to me, other moderators, or the adminstrators of this site. Third strike and you're banned. That goes for personal messages to anyone on this board as well. This is not a platform for you to play playground bully. Quote
vegetablebelay Posted April 10, 2003 Posted April 10, 2003 Way to be on the ball OW. That exchange was only about 5 hours ago and was joined by Erik at the time... Quote
Off_White Posted April 10, 2003 Posted April 10, 2003 Fuck off Veg, and no, that's not an invitation. It's been under discussion elsewhere, and what I'm doing is not some flash in the pan heat of the moment response, but rather a measured reply that is happening on a variety of levels you are not aware of. Moderators don't babysit every moment around here, and if you'd like to see otherwise you can put your money where your smarmy mouth is and start sending me a monthly check. Perhaps you'd like to make a few personal threats, then you could scream about oppression (elsewhere) because you weren't given the same consideration. Quote
Peter_Puget Posted April 10, 2003 Posted April 10, 2003 Jim Quote: “I think your earlier reply was that I lost all credibility - I would encourage you do some reading - but I also noticed that you're not disputing the Saddam/CIA connection(?)” Jim – You lost credibility by referencing a book by someone I equate to a holocaust denier. What do I mean by that? Well simply that the facts you might present here on this board will not be as willingly accepted at face value as they were before your reference. Thanks for encouraging me to do more reading! I will endeavor to do so. As I have said several times I am not disputing a possible Saddam/CIA connection . Seems like it might be possible. I don’t know. I also think that conspiracy theories and a belief in shadowing organizations controlling the world are a new and I might add inferior religion often lead by former sinners who have seen the light. (maybe Blum for instance) Again I ask: Please explain how your two references help to support the CIA/Saddam connection! I notice one covers a period ended 1935. I do not believe the CIA was in existence then and Saddam was a little boy at best. The second list a series of engagement the US was involved in but specifically excludes covert actions. Reviewing the list of engagements I do not see anything in Iraq putting Saddam in power. What am I missing? PP Quote
Jim Posted April 10, 2003 Posted April 10, 2003 Peter_Puget said: Jim Quote: “ As I have said several times I am not disputing a possible Saddam/CIA connection . Seems like it might be possible. I don’t know. Again I ask: Please explain how your two references help to support the CIA/Saddam connection! What am I missing? PP Again, I would suggest you read some of the references I supplied. There are a couple older ones that discuss US early intervention (historcical context), take a look a Chompsky for the Cliff Notes version. You say you don't know. I do, I've read the books, and some of the source material. I can't spoon feed you. Read some, and then let me know what you think. Otherwise you're uninformed. Quote
Peter_Puget Posted April 10, 2003 Posted April 10, 2003 Below is your post with the two references I was asking about. Both seem to me, and from your last response, to you as well completely nonresponsive to the Saddam/CIA question. Any references you posted after this I have not bothered to checkout. I am not sure why you posted these two here while discussing a sadaam/CIA connection since they appear to have no relation to the assertion you were making. Just spreading the "good news" I guess. PP Have you read the book I cited? No, of course not so rather than dispute the cited facts let's go to poison the well logic. This could go on all day, but rather than me listing sources you could read, why not try and do a little digging? Citation: Zwick, Jim, ed. Anti-Imperialism in the United States, 1898-1935. Or "Instances of Use of United States Forces Abroad, 1798-1993" by Ellen C. Collier of the Library of Congress Congressional Research Service Quote
allthumbs Posted April 10, 2003 Posted April 10, 2003 I notice the UN didn't waste any time in stating, no demanding, that they be involved in the restructuring process and that it would be a mistake to not do so. They stated they did not want to be left with the only task of just handing out humanitarian aid. President Bush's reply was just as quick. The Iraqi people are capable of forming their own government, Thank you very much! It's high time we sent the UN packing, and not to piss anyone off or anything, but UN involvement in the restructuring of other governments can hardly be called successful when a huge outside force must maintain it's presence to keep order and control. Y'all should be able to find out, just what are the international numbers still present in the former communist block countries? I say the Iraqi people know best what form of government would work best for them. Maintain just enough oversight to prevent another SH from grasping power and nothing more. cheers trask Quote
Jim Posted April 10, 2003 Posted April 10, 2003 PP - I'll try again - "historical context" - how's that. Now, go back and look at the other more recent documents I suggested. I'll even bail from those two as they are background - and if you think Blum is a kook - toss that one. Now, go to the book store or libray and pick up a copy of one of the others. Sit down, read. Then maybe we'll have an informed (both sides) discussion. Quote
JoshK Posted April 10, 2003 Posted April 10, 2003 Anybody who threatens anybody else on an internet message board has serious small dick syndrome. Quote
allthumbs Posted April 10, 2003 Posted April 10, 2003 JoshK said: Anybody who threatens anybody else on an internet message board has serious small dick syndrome. shut up you broken egg Quote
JGowans Posted April 10, 2003 Posted April 10, 2003 JoshK said: Anybody who threatens anybody else on an internet message board has serious small dick syndrome. I'll take you all on in any hardware store of your choosing. Name the section and I'll be there. I prefer the garden section myself...the hoe is my tool of choice. On guard! Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted April 10, 2003 Posted April 10, 2003 trask said: hmmm start of a ham and cheese omelet 17 days ... Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted April 10, 2003 Posted April 10, 2003 jim- why in the hell would we want to read propaganda bullshit that you recomend when you have recomended a person that denies the albanian ethnic cleansing? i am currently going to school with survivors of this tradgedy and if you want to ask them if it really happened, you are more then welcome to... let me know and i will give you their e-mail address... why would i go through the effort to read bull shit, to find out 2 days later (after primary source checking) that is it total aniti-american propaganda and not worht the paper it is printed on? do you have anything that you KNOW (and i repeat know) thatis FACTUAL? if so, i would be more than glad to read it, as i am very interested in figuring this out for myself... cheers... Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.